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Thread: What is the relationship between South Indian Dravidians and Austro-Asiatic Tribals?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Not sure about Uttarkhand kolis and their language, but Sonbhadra is adjacent to the core AA lands, and next adjacent is Mirzapur.
    My Bad lol. Actually I was referring to Kol people and in Wikipedia's Uttarakhand article it is mentioned that they lived there in old times. However I didn't check the sources for their reliability.

    Linquists also consider Gandak, Gandhar, Ganga etc. to be AA names.
    Gandhar as in like Gandhar Naresh Shakuni? That's nice. O2a in that region at present?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    ... Those Horner like samples from Tanzania pretty much proved that ie they found Horner like woman all the way down in Tanzania, and she was older than 3Kya date given for admixing ...
    "3,100-year-old pastoralist from Tanzania"

    "We found that the ~3,100 BP individual
    (Tanzania_Luxmanda_3100BP), associated with a Savanna
    Pastoral Neolithic archeological tradition, could be modeled as
    having 38% ± 1% of her ancestry related to the nearly 10,000-
    year-old pre-pottery farmers of the Levant (Lazaridis et al.,
    2016), and we can exclude source populations related to early
    farmer populations in Iran and Anatolia. These results could be
    explained by migration into Africa from descendants of pre-pottery
    Levantine farmers or alternatively by a scenario in which
    both pre-pottery Levantine farmers and Tanzania_Luxmanda_
    3100BP descend from a common ancestral population that lived
    thousands of years earlier in Africa or the Near East.
    "

    While:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4163019/
    "In sub-Saharan Africa, genetic studies have documented multiple examples of populations with ancestry from disparate sources. Many populations across sub-Saharan Africa trace some fraction of their ancestry to admixture in the last several thousand years with populations related to those in western Africa [65]. Further, populations in eastern and southern Africa have been influenced by gene flow from west Eurasian-related populations in the last 3,000 years"

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinosaurusN3H1 View Post


    Gandhar as in like Gandhar Naresh Shakuni? That's nice. O2a in that region at present?
    Same Gandhar.
    I don't recall O2a from that region. Some O yes.

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinosaurusN3H1 View Post
    Zhao et al 2009 studied 5 groups from Uttar Pradesh. Bhargavs, Chaturvedis and Shias all showed 2.0 - 2.3% O, Sunnis showed 2.9% and Brahmins 4.2%. No subclades were mentioned though.
    Fornarino et al found 10.8% O2a among Eastern Tharus and 3.4% among Andhra Tribals. O3 was much higher in Tharus. But among Hindu groups, Terai Hindus(Madhesi perhaps) showed O3 at 3.8% and New Delhi Hindus at 2%.
    Sharma et al found 3.3% among Maharastra Brahmins, 3.7% among Bihar Paswans. Among tribes, UP Kols at 41% and Gonds at 6-8%.

    Sapporo here shared this document
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...kDc/edit#gid=0
    According to which one Jatt Sikh sample is O2a*

    Though sporadic among larger groups, O lineages can be expected throughout the subcontinent. If I'm not wrong, there was a theory of IVC people being Asutro-Asiatic speakers. If they were indeed O2a then probably in history, they were much more numerous.
    Highly doubt this given how low O2a gets outside eastern SA.

    You can't extrapolate the one O sample in Sapporos spreadsheet as a hypothesis for a Munda IVC. There is almost zero cultural similarity and the entry point of O2a is much more recent than Mehrgarh @ 9000ybp
    Last edited by bmoney; 02-26-2018 at 10:57 PM.

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Probably at the time ASI ancestors split from Basal to before they started admixing again.


    Moorjani, Reich et al.: "A possible explanation is a secondary wave of mixture in the history of many Indo-European groups, which would decrease the estimated admixture date."

    Using 25 years per generation (they use 29 which I think is too much for the past):
    Admixture occurred 2700ybp for Dravidians.
    And, 1800 ybp for Indo-Aryans.

    Two major admixture events are needed to support the data:


    Both admixture events clearly postdate formation of Indus settlements (Bhirrana 9500ybp).

    So early Indus by that logic had to be either ASI or ANI.

    The admixture into Dravidians 2700ybp looks to be after the Indus collapse.

    The admixture into Indo-Aryans looks to be in the historical Kushan period.
    I think the ANI/ASI mixture is earlier than 2700 ybp due to the widespread ASI ancestry even up to Afghanistan.

    IMO It cant be recent population movements from the peninsula but rather ancestry formed in the genesis of North Indian groups, esp supported by mtdna signatures. I would expect Rakhigarhi to have ASI admixture

    Perhaps what we're seeing in this 2700ybp figure is Vedic Aryan mix into the Dravidians, as this method only detects the latest admixture signal. Hinduism Buddhism and Jainism has been in the south since the earliest written Dravidian history the Sangha literature - we don't really have any pre-Aryan religion beyond Hindu assimilated local beliefs that are also present in other parts of the country

    An extra wave of mixture of Abashevo-like ancestry into the Indo-Aryans in the Kushan period 1800ybp
    Last edited by bmoney; 02-26-2018 at 11:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Not sure about Uttarkhand kolis and their language, but Sonbhadra is adjacent to the core AA lands, and next adjacent is Mirzapur.
    Linquists also consider Gandak, Gandhar, Ganga etc. to be AA names.
    Ganga looks IE, unless the words are just coincidental.

    Sanskrit गङ्गा (gáṅgā, literally “swift-goer”), from verbal root √gam (√gam, “to go”).
    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ganges

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Highly doubt this given how low O2a gets outside eastern SA.

    You can't extrapolate the one O sample in Sapporos spreadsheet as a hypothesis for a Munda IVC. There is almost zero cultural similarity and the entry point of O2a is much more recent than Mehrgarh @ 9000ybp
    Interestingly, the oldest so far aDNA from South Asia (Central Himalaya) is O2a. The sample was either early or mid Iron age(1100-600BC).

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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Interestingly, the oldest so far aDNA from South Asia (Central Himalaya) is O2a. The sample was either early or mid Iron age(1100-600BC).
    One must be especially cautious with the alphanumeric names for subclades of haplogroup O-M175.

    O-M122, the subclade that was generally known as haplogroup O3-M122 until a few years ago, is now dubbed haplogroup O2-M122. This is a clade of Palaeolithic origin (formed 31500 ybp, TMRCA 29000 ybp according to YFull YTree v6.01) that includes a variety of subclades that comprise the major part of the Y-DNA pools of present-day populations in China and Korea, and it is also quite frequent among populations in Southeast Asia, the Himalayan region, Japan, Mongolia, and Polynesia.

    The former haplogroup O2a (found with high frequency among present-day speakers of many Austroasiatic, Tai-Kradai, and westerly Malayo-Polynesian languages, but with much of its basal diversity found among peoples dwelling further north in Eurasia, particularly the Chinese and the Japanese; one unusual branch has been found in a European Russian) is now known as haplogroup O1b1a1a-M95.

    Are you sure that the "haplogroup O2a" found in that ancient specimen from the Central Himalaya is not a member of O2a-M324, which is by far the more frequently observed of the two primary branches of haplogroup O2-M122 (formerly O3-M122)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    One must be especially cautious with the alphanumeric names for subclades of haplogroup O-M175.

    O-M122, the subclade that was generally known as haplogroup O3-M122 until a few years ago, is now dubbed haplogroup O2-M122. This is a clade of Palaeolithic origin (formed 31500 ybp, TMRCA 29000 ybp according to YFull YTree v6.01) that includes a variety of subclades that comprise the major part of the Y-DNA pools of present-day populations in China and Korea, and it is also quite frequent among populations in Southeast Asia, the Himalayan region, Japan, Mongolia, and Polynesia.

    The former haplogroup O2a (found with high frequency among present-day speakers of many Austroasiatic, Tai-Kradai, and westerly Malayo-Polynesian languages, but with much of its basal diversity found among peoples dwelling further north in Eurasia, particularly the Chinese and the Japanese; one unusual branch has been found in a European Russian) is now known as haplogroup O1b1a1a-M95.

    Are you sure that the "haplogroup O2a" found in that ancient specimen from the Central Himalaya is not a member of O2a-M324, which is by far the more frequently observed of the two primary branches of haplogroup O2-M122 (formerly O3-M122)?
    I have almost zero knowledge on Haplogroup O's subclades except that the aDNA from the 1st M BC Nepal had O2a. I will read the 2016 paper on Sherpa genetics to see if I can add more meaningful insights into the discussion.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    One must be especially cautious with the alphanumeric names for subclades of haplogroup O-M175.

    O-M122, the subclade that was generally known as haplogroup O3-M122 until a few years ago, is now dubbed haplogroup O2-M122. This is a clade of Palaeolithic origin (formed 31500 ybp, TMRCA 29000 ybp according to YFull YTree v6.01) that includes a variety of subclades that comprise the major part of the Y-DNA pools of present-day populations in China and Korea, and it is also quite frequent among populations in Southeast Asia, the Himalayan region, Japan, Mongolia, and Polynesia.

    The former haplogroup O2a (found with high frequency among present-day speakers of many Austroasiatic, Tai-Kradai, and westerly Malayo-Polynesian languages, but with much of its basal diversity found among peoples dwelling further north in Eurasia, particularly the Chinese and the Japanese; one unusual branch has been found in a European Russian) is now known as haplogroup O1b1a1a-M95.

    Are you sure that the "haplogroup O2a" found in that ancient specimen from the Central Himalaya is not a member of O2a-M324, which is by far the more frequently observed of the two primary branches of haplogroup O2-M122 (formerly O3-M122)?

    Annapurna Conservation Area (ACA) of Nepal, spanning 3,150–1,250 ybp, sample, Y, and current %ages in Tibet.
    ["oldest sample in the study, C1, dating to the Chokhopani period"]
    C1 O-M117 29.86%
    S10 O-M117 29.86%
    S35 O-M117 29.86%
    S41 D 54.50%

    TMRCA M117 5.4kybp


    In Tharus:
    Last edited by parasar; 02-28-2018 at 03:57 PM.

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