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Thread: Caucasus results in S. Italians

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    I guess I was hoping to determine more of a regional thing. I understood (possibly incorrectly) "Caucasus" as a general term in this situation for people from the Caucasus region. I wasnt sure if Armenian, Azerbaijani, etc.. were lumped into that general term or if those would be called out individually if present.

    My K36 results show .95 Armenian, 4.36 East Balkan, 2.9 North Caucasian and .95 West Caucasian.

    The K12b (and most other calculators) just says 10% Caucasus.

    You're not Caucasian. K36 says so.
    The reason K12b gives such a high percentage is I believe your ancient DNA, probably in form of Anatolian. The Caucasus farmer also invaded Anatolia and maybe even SE Europe, so it is not really shocking to see this in Southern Europeans.
    I have high Mediterranean components, that's because at some point, EEF invaded the Caucasus as well. But, I am not Italian
    This is how I understand this but maybe you'll receive a better explanation.

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  3. #22
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    Well I guess I'll post mines as well lol All from K36


    Population

    Arabian 4.47
    Armenian 8.48
    Central_Euro 3.80
    East_Balkan 8.24
    East_Central_Euro 1.45
    East_Med 7.59
    Italian 16.12
    Near_Eastern 13.25
    North_African 0.82
    North_Atlantic 6.23
    North_Caucasian 0.05
    West_Caucasian 0.87
    West_Med 6.31

  4. #23
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    Surprised you didnt get a high Iberian % in the K36. i got more Iberian than Italian, even though i have no known Spanish/Portuguese...
    As this doesnt show up in other admix calculators, I wonder if its either confused or the dna is so similar it just assumes?
    (i say this based on other people with Italian genes saying they saw some Iberian %, so i hope i dont come across as assumptive)
    Last edited by digital_noise; 03-07-2018 at 08:39 PM.

  5. #24
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    Anatolian Greeks are not likely the reason for a Caucus component in Sicily and Southern Italy.
    The recent study The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe found that Southern Greek neolithic farmers were different from other European farmers: "there was gene flow into the region from populations with CHG-rich ancestry throughout the Neolithic, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age. Possible sources are related to the Neolithic population from the central Anatolian site of Tepecik Ciftlik, or the Aegean site of Kumtepe, who are also shifted towards CHG relative to NW Anatolian Neolithic samples, as are later Copper and Bronze Age Anatolians"
    Interestingly, we know from Lazaridis that Minoans also had significant CHG component. I'm no expert but I would say that SSI and the Greek Islands all experienced the same CHG gene flow long before the Ionians and Dorians colonized the area.

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonsOfHerakles View Post
    Anatolian Greeks are not likely the reason for a Caucus component in Sicily and Southern Italy.
    The recent study The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe found that Southern Greek neolithic farmers were different from other European farmers: "there was gene flow into the region from populations with CHG-rich ancestry throughout the Neolithic, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age. Possible sources are related to the Neolithic population from the central Anatolian site of Tepecik Ciftlik, or the Aegean site of Kumtepe, who are also shifted towards CHG relative to NW Anatolian Neolithic samples, as are later Copper and Bronze Age Anatolians"
    Interestingly, we know from Lazaridis that Minoans also had significant CHG component. I'm no expert but I would say that SSI and the Greek Islands all experienced the same CHG gene flow long before the Ionians and Dorians colonized the area.
    exactly that, and to this can now be added olalde et al I4930(sicily) from 1900bc the latest;

    modelled in Eurogenes (04/03/2018) as
    [1] distance%=4.7903 Beaker_Sicily_no_steppe
    Barcin_N,54
    Anatolia_ChL,40.2
    Blatterhole_HG,5.8

    my view is however that these add iran_n/chg rich non steppe dependent migrations (ult from the aegean/anatolia area) hinted at by the archaeological/metallurgical record and ötzi/remedello in kilinc et al (?4th mil wave) and now clearly signalised by I4930 (?3rd mil wave) are however not just confined to SSI but to all of italy, and looking at I1979(parma) one might well believe it; what we also learned in that month of publications is that solely based on amorim et al (for now) is that northern italy seemingly had a significant post-roman germanic(specific longobard) impact, just as the greeks had theirs with the slavs, which changed the dimensions;
    Geno2.0NG 51%SEurope 19%WCEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EEurope 4%GB&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%WCEurope 40%SEEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NWEuropean 27%SEuropean 13%MedIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%NWEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek&SouthItalian 7.1%Balkan gencove 29%NItaly 19%EMed 15%NBritishIsles 12%SWEurope 10%NCEurope 9%Scandinavia 6%NEEurope GenePlazaK29 54.4%NWEurope 37.6%Greek/Albania 5.6%WAsian 2.4%SWAsia

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  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    exactly that, and to this can now be added olalde et al I4930(sicily) from 1900bc the latest;

    modelled in Eurogenes (04/03/2018) as
    [1] distance%=4.7903 Beaker_Sicily_no_steppe
    Barcin_N,54
    Anatolia_ChL,40.2
    Blatterhole_HG,5.8

    my view is however that these add iran_n/chg rich non steppe dependent migrations (ult from the aegean/anatolia area) hinted at by the archaeological/metallurgical record and ötzi/remedello in kilinc et al (?4th mil wave) and now clearly signalised by I4930 (?3rd mil wave) are however not just confined to SSI but to all of italy, and looking at I1979(parma) one might well believe it; what we also learned in that month of publications is that solely based on amorim et al (for now) is that northern italy seemingly had a significant post-roman germanic(specific longobard) impact, just as the greeks had theirs with the slavs, which changed the dimensions;
    Does this mean that you think SSI is not differentiated from the rest of the peninsula prior to the post-Roman Germanic impact? I remember reading something stating that they had a negligible impact on the genetics of the peninsula. Although it may have been specific to SSI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SonsOfHerakles View Post
    Does this mean that you think SSI is not differentiated from the rest of the peninsula prior to the post-Roman Germanic impact? I remember reading something stating that they had a negligible impact on the genetics of the peninsula. Although it may have been specific to SSI.
    there were differentiations for sure, after all the italy/sicily olalde et al samples are all from more or less the same period; what i just meant is that despite the sample being from an area does not nec confine the entire migratory event solely to that area; the ult verdict is still out on the germanic impact, i reckon that de angelis et al will shed more light into that by eitehr conferming or debunking the for now insight of amorim et al, essentially as it stands now just by looking at it there are these local north italian samples 6thAD which are akin to modern cretans/cyprus and things of that nature, and than a local (CL36) north italian from the 8thAD diverging from that and akin to modern north italians with a north european ancestry lacking in the previous locals; one of the longobards was U152+/L2+ while the local was P312+(xU152) as was the beaker I2478; maybe L2+ came with the longobards or at least a good subset of it; in total the ostrogoth/crimean-goth or whatver he/she was looked a bit odd so who knows if the ostrogoths might have even smthing to do with these locals, that roman paper is in the making so soon we'll be smarter;
    Geno2.0NG 51%SEurope 19%WCEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EEurope 4%GB&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%WCEurope 40%SEEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NWEuropean 27%SEuropean 13%MedIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%NWEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek&SouthItalian 7.1%Balkan gencove 29%NItaly 19%EMed 15%NBritishIsles 12%SWEurope 10%NCEurope 9%Scandinavia 6%NEEurope GenePlazaK29 54.4%NWEurope 37.6%Greek/Albania 5.6%WAsian 2.4%SWAsia

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  12. #28
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    I think the Caucasian input is one of the oldest in southern Italy. Pre dating Steppe migrations. Even bell beakers in Sicily had some Caucasian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweuro View Post
    Seems like caucasus farmers (high in haplogroup J2) invaded SE Europe (to a less degree the Balkans, and other parts of Europe). Probably in the late Bronze Age or beginning of Iron Age. In turn, the near-east also received this ancestry and is thus also very high in this Caucasus component, there is also this near-east input that contributed to the "caucasus" component of SE Europe.
    There hadn't been any actual invasion in the actual sense rather there's been a continous geneflow and reactions between Europe and the Near East during the Neolithic period. First there came the European farmers who were similar to Basques then with the second wave the Anatolian Famers (most similar to modern Sardinians) then a Cypriot-Anatolian Chalcolithic like came. Caucasus like ancestry exists in all parts of Europe not only the SE.

  14. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    Surprised you didnt get a high Iberian % in the K36. i got more Iberian than Italian, even though i have no known Spanish/Portuguese...
    As this doesnt show up in other admix calculators, I wonder if its either confused or the dna is so similar it just assumes?
    (i say this based on other people with Italian genes saying they saw some Iberian %, so i hope i dont come across as assumptive)
    The Iberian and Italian seems interchangeable in K36, the difference is that the Iberian may carry more WHG-Mesolithic like ancestry while the Italian is more Neolithic Farmer derived from Anatolia, hence why Anatolian farmer samples usually score Italian the highest.

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