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Thread: Ancient DNA from Romania

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dumidre View Post
    I might add the Romans and others from the Roman occupation...
    Romans? Yes, well no one quite knows what impact Roman occupation had on population structure. David Reich’s team is working on 1000 new samples from Iron Age and Roman Britain.* One of the issues they are apparently looking into is what effect Roman presence may have had on the population of Britannia, which the Romans occupied for a little over 360 years. They occupied parts of Dacia for a little over 160 years. We shall see if anything relevant for Dacia can be inferred by analogy with the upcoming Reich study on Roman Britain.
    * https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-43712587

  2. #132
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    More Global 25; this time with Maps.

    Green denotes tighter model fit; the more intense the green, the better the fit.

    Continuing with some of the Chalcolithic models with good fit for modern Romanians in post #111.

    The model with the Chalcolithic sample from Urziceni (I4089):

    gets this map:



    The most intense green is for Romania, followed by Bulgaria, then Turkey.

    It is more intuitively right (the most intense green is for Romania) in comparison with the map for the model with all samples from the Balkans Chalcolithic:


    which is this:

    Last edited by Fungene; 12-02-2018 at 01:42 AM.

  3. #133
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    For the model with the Neolithic sample from Coțatcu (I2532):


    we get:



    For the model with all samples from Balkans Neolithic:


    The map is:



    Visually, the model restricted to Coțatcu yields a better result for modern Romanians.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fungene View Post
    More Global 25; this time with Maps.

    Green denotes tighter model fit; the more intense the green, the better the fit.

    Continuing with some of the Chalcolithic models with good fit for modern Romanians in post #111.

    The model with the Chalcolithic sample from Urziceni (I4089):
    Nice model, I know that the closest fit is not the priority for you here, but I'll just mention that using the Romanian:Average creates the illusion of a closer fit than the actual average, if you were to average the fits for each individual. I've done that just for testing purposes, with the same settings as in the web nMonte (double check if in doubt).

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=4.0563"
    
    	 Romanian:Dorkymon
    
    Balkans_ChL,50
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,43.3333333333333
    Romania_HG,6.66666666666667
    
    
    [1] "distance%=3.4425"
    
    	 Romanian:A306
    
    Balkans_ChL,50
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,39.1666666666667
    Romania_HG,10.8333333333333
    
    
    [1] "distance%=3.9924"
    
    	 Romanian:A325
    
    Balkans_ChL,59.1666666666667
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,40
    Romania_HG,0.833333333333333
    
    
    [1] "distance%=2.8838"
    
    	 Romanian:A343
    
    Balkans_ChL,59.1666666666667
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,40
    Romania_HG,0.833333333333333
    
    
    [1] "distance%=3.4312"
    
    	 Romanian:A362
    
    Balkans_ChL,56.6666666666667
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,40.8333333333333
    Romania_HG,2.5
    
    
    [1] "distance%=2.8122"
    
    	 Romanian:A374
    
    Balkans_ChL,55
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,42.5
    Romania_HG,2.5
    
    
    [1] "distance%=3.0345"
    
    	 Romanian:G408
    
    Balkans_ChL,58.3333333333333
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,39.1666666666667
    Romania_HG,2.5
    
    
    [1] "distance%=2.7382"
    
    	 Romanian:G421
    
    Balkans_ChL,63.3333333333333
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,35.8333333333333
    Romania_HG,0.833333333333333
    
    
    [1] "distance%=3.0607"
    
    	 Romanian:G428
    
    Balkans_ChL,61.6666666666667
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,38.3333333333333
    
    
    [1] "distance%=3.5869"
    
    	 Romanian:G429
    
    Balkans_ChL,60.8333333333333
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,39.1666666666667
    
    
    [1] "distance%=3.2194"
    
    	 Romanian:G434
    
    Balkans_ChL,58.3333333333333
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,39.1666666666667
    Romania_HG,2.5
    Without counting me, the average of these 10 Romanians is 3.2 vs 2.1 for the Romanian:Average with pen=0 and 2.3 with pen=0.001 (your case). Also, don't use the penalty, because you are comparing 3 or 4 very different populations. The penalty is meant for populations who are hard to distinguish between (e.g. Irish and English), so the calculator will artificially attempt to pull towards the closest single distance fit.


    Also, just a heads up, as you realise there's also minor ancestry present in Romanians and, ignoring me, 4/10 absorb some pure East Asian ancestry when it is introduced. Now obviously, the reference is completely irrelevant, geographically speaking, but we simply don't know how this type of ancestry spread in Romania in the 1st place. Did it stuck after being introduced by Scythians? Is it from Cumans, Bulgars, perhaps Mongols or Tatars? There are more questions than hard data when it comes to this.

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=3.601"
    
    	 Romanian:Dorkymon
    
    Balkans_ChL,49.1666666666667
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,40.8333333333333
    Romania_HG,6.66666666666667
    Naxi (East Asian proxy),3.33333333333333
    
    
    [1] "distance%=3.4425"
    
    	 Romanian:A306
    
    Balkans_ChL,50
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,39.1666666666667
    Romania_HG,10.8333333333333
    
    
    [1] "distance%=3.9924"
    
    	 Romanian:A325
    
    Balkans_ChL,59.1666666666667
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,40
    Romania_HG,0.833333333333333
    
    
    [1] "distance%=2.8838"
    
    	 Romanian:A343
    
    Balkans_ChL,59.1666666666667
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,40
    Romania_HG,0.833333333333333
    
    
    [1] "distance%=3.337"
    
    	 Romanian:A362
    
    Balkans_ChL,56.6666666666667
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,39.1666666666667
    Romania_HG,2.5
    Naxi (East Asian proxy),1.66666666666667
    
    
    [1] "distance%=2.7858"
    
    	 Romanian:A374
    
    Balkans_ChL,55
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,41.6666666666667
    Romania_HG,2.5
    Naxi (East Asian proxy),0.833333333333333
    
    
    [1] "distance%=2.9768"
    
    	 Romanian:G408
    
    Balkans_ChL,58.3333333333333
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,38.3333333333333
    Romania_HG,2.5
    Naxi (East Asian proxy),0.833333333333333
    
    
    [1] "distance%=2.7382"
    
    	 Romanian:G421
    
    Balkans_ChL,63.3333333333333
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,35.8333333333333
    Romania_HG,0.833333333333333
    
    
    [1] "distance%=3.0607"
    
    	 Romanian:G428
    
    Balkans_ChL,61.6666666666667
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,38.3333333333333
    
    
    [1] "distance%=3.5869"
    
    	 Romanian:G429
    
    Balkans_ChL,60.8333333333333
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,39.1666666666667
    
    
    [1] "distance%=3.1443"
    
    	 Romanian:G434
    
    Balkans_ChL,57.5
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,37.5
    Romania_HG,3.33333333333333
    Naxi (East Asian proxy),1.66666666666667
    Last edited by Dorkymon; 12-06-2018 at 03:30 PM.
    Known ancestry: 1/2 Romanian Northeast + 1/4 Romanian Southeast + 1/4 Romanian Bukovina Ukraine
    23andme: 53.5% South Euro (41.8% Balkan), 22.4% East Euro, 7.3% Northwest Euro, 0.3% Ashkenazi, 14.7% Broadly Euro, 1.8% East Asian
    MyHeritage: 92.2% Balkan, 5.8% English, 1.1% Eskimo, 0.9% Japanese
    FTDNA: 45% Southeast Euro, 45% East Euro, 4% British Isles, 3% West Middle East, 2% NE Asia
    Global 25: Anatolia_N 50.2%, EHG 32.6%, CHG 11.2%, WHG 3.8%, East Asian 2.2%

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    using the Romanian:Average creates the illusion of a closer fit than the actual average, if you were to average the fits for each individual.
    [/code]
    What illusion? Each model has a fitness score. Averaging fitness scores across different models does not produce an interpretable magnitude.

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    the closest fit is not the priority for you here

    [/code]
    Strange comment.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fungene View Post
    What illusion?
    The illusion of a tighter fit for that model.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fungene View Post
    Each model has a fitness score.
    You don't say, we also call it a "fit" around here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fungene View Post
    Averaging fitness scores across different models does not produce an interpretable magnitude.
    I didn't bring different models into this discussion, so I don't see how this makes any sense. I've reproduced the test for each individual with the same model that you have introduced (i4089 + Yamnaya_Ukraine + Romania_HG).
    Known ancestry: 1/2 Romanian Northeast + 1/4 Romanian Southeast + 1/4 Romanian Bukovina Ukraine
    23andme: 53.5% South Euro (41.8% Balkan), 22.4% East Euro, 7.3% Northwest Euro, 0.3% Ashkenazi, 14.7% Broadly Euro, 1.8% East Asian
    MyHeritage: 92.2% Balkan, 5.8% English, 1.1% Eskimo, 0.9% Japanese
    FTDNA: 45% Southeast Euro, 45% East Euro, 4% British Isles, 3% West Middle East, 2% NE Asia
    Global 25: Anatolia_N 50.2%, EHG 32.6%, CHG 11.2%, WHG 3.8%, East Asian 2.2%

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fungene View Post
    Strange comment.
    Well, it certainly isn't, as you've said it yourself on the previous 2 pages.
    Otherwise you'd focus on the Iron Age and work with the available Scythians and Balkans_IA from Northeastern Bulgaria.
    You're just reading this in isolation.
    Known ancestry: 1/2 Romanian Northeast + 1/4 Romanian Southeast + 1/4 Romanian Bukovina Ukraine
    23andme: 53.5% South Euro (41.8% Balkan), 22.4% East Euro, 7.3% Northwest Euro, 0.3% Ashkenazi, 14.7% Broadly Euro, 1.8% East Asian
    MyHeritage: 92.2% Balkan, 5.8% English, 1.1% Eskimo, 0.9% Japanese
    FTDNA: 45% Southeast Euro, 45% East Euro, 4% British Isles, 3% West Middle East, 2% NE Asia
    Global 25: Anatolia_N 50.2%, EHG 32.6%, CHG 11.2%, WHG 3.8%, East Asian 2.2%

  9. #139
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    I have a long post on Scythians and also one that includes tips on relevant historical reading. We don't have samples from Romania past the Chalcolithic. And we can easily get the appearance of a tight model with overfitting.
    More on some of these issues when I have time.
    Also, just a few short comments: we should, by-and large, look at more recent events (russification, transfer of populations, eg.Tatars by Ottoman empire) for the issue that seems to be of preeminent concern to you. The introduction in medieval times of some minorities, such as Szeklers, is also relevant.
    Djuvara and Boia are popular, but simply can't stand up in comparison with the work of Stahl and Spinei. What wealth of information, especially the endnotes and footnotes!
    I have to say, reading Stahl's Contributii la Studiul Satelor Devălmașe Românești, originally published in 1958, reedited 1998, is an absolute must (including the endnotes; amazing material; one can see how shoddy Djuvara and Boia are in comparison.) This is a third recommended reading, but first in order of importance.
    The nMonte stuff, as Poi recently wrote, is meant for good fun.

  10. #140
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    Some of your comments look desperate. Reread what I have written carefully.

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