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Thread: What about the all of the R1b in the Basques?

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    What about the all of the R1b in the Basques?

    What about the Basques? They have a lot of DF27, specifically the N-S people including M153. They also have L21. They also have I-M23.

    I've read a paper on the Basques that I thought was interesting. The author posts on another forum. I'm not a linguist so I don't understand the whole thing and I'm not sure if I understand creole versus not, but he makes the case that IE has impacted pre-Basque at its root.

    "I'm the author of "Evidence for Basque as an Indo-European Language", published in The Journal of Indo-European Studies - Volume 41 (http://www.jiesonline.com/issues/).

    If you read it, I'll be glad to receive your feedback via this topic.

    You can find more information about me, as well as my papers (or excerpts thereof) here: http://independent.academia.edu/GianfrancoForni.

    Thank you

    Gianfranco Forni"
    ....

    "Dear group members,


    let me try and summarize what's been going on with this topic so far. Since I posted my first message over two weeks ago, I received few replies. The most frequent ones are fairly weak criticisms, by D. G. Kilday, mostly based on:

    - a rejection of key parts of Michelena's and Trask's commonly accepted internal reconstruction of Pre-Basque (it would be interesting to be pointed to some published material where such rejection is supported by some systematic evidence);

    - an analysis of a very small percentage of my etymologies, which are either refuted on various grounds (incl. the critic's unorthodox reconstruction of Pre-Basque), or dismissed as "loans" when the similarity with other IE terms is too evident to be otherwise dismissed.

    Comments by other fellow linguists would be very welcome.

    Gianfranco Forni"
    http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/c...s/topics/71283

    "Ancestral Journeys The Peopling of Europe from the first Venturers to the Vikings" by Jean Manco, p.147
    ""The Basques speak a non-Indo-European language which might have its origins in the Coper Age Balkans, in contact with PIE (see Chapter 7). If there was a pool of R1b1a somewhere in that contact zone, that could explain why the Basques have as much R1b1a2 as their Indo-European neighbors."

    I think the contact zone reference is to the Cucuteni-Tripolye and Yamnaya herder contact zone. I guess I should double check that.

    I'm not at all saying that "Paleo"-Basque is Western European. It may very well come from the Caucasus or SE Europe. I just have no problem with either of these scenarios for R1b's involvement in it:
    1) Multiple introgressions of R1b-L11 subclades over a period of time, none of which tipped the language usage scale each individually
    2) A castrophic introgression of R1b-L11 in the pre-Basque cultures but in a form that was fleeting. I guess you could say largely absentee fathers.
    3) An R1b-L11 splinter group helped form a non-IE culture or IE-like culture (if you believe in Gianfranco)

    They are low in the Gedrosia autosomal component, which is interesting. I don't know what to make of that.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 09-25-2013 at 02:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    "Ancestral Journeys The Peopling of Europe from the first Venturers to the Vikings" by Jean Manco, p.147
    ""The Basques speak a non-Indo-European language which might have its origins in the Coper Age Balkans, in contact with PIE (see Chapter 7). If there was a pool of R1b1a somewhere in that contact zone, that could explain why the Basques have as much R1b1a2 as their Indo-European neighbors."

    I think the contact zone reference is to the Cucuteni-Tripolye and Yamnaya herder contact zone. I guess I should double check that.
    ...
    Jean Manco, p.121.
    "Euskara does appear to be a language from the age of metal. It includes indigenous Basque words related to agriculture, wheeled vehicles and metallurgy, ...
    ...
    The collapse of the Copper Age cultures of the Balkans, apparently due to climate change around 4000 BC, could provide the context for the spread westwards of refugees looking for literally greener pastures. A common origin in the Balkans might explain the the preceived similarity of Paelo-Sardinian and Basque.
    ...
    Yet if Paleo-Basque came from somewhere near the PIE homeland, it may make a great deal of sense."

    To be fair, Jean provides a strong caveat,
    "The Basques remain something of a mystery. Only further study of ancient DNA seems likely to resolve it."

    The irony of a some kind of origination of Paelo-Basque near the PIE homeland is that implies the split of at least DF27, if not DF27's Z220, from the rest of P312, including U152 and L21 must have happened far to the east. I don't have a problem with that, but I'll have to think about it a bit.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 09-25-2013 at 02:16 AM.

  3. #3
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    The Basques speak a non-Indo-European language which might have its origins in the Coper Age Balkans, in contact with PIE (see Chapter 7). If there was a pool of R1b1a somewhere in that contact zone, that could explain why the Basques have as much R1b1a2 as their Indo-European neighbors
    U got to be kidding me. Sure it is possible proto Indo European speakers were in that zone during the copper age and may have been very high in R1b1a2a L23!!! Sure it is a possibility I don't know any strong evidence that the Basque language is from copper age Balkans. But that would not explain why they are so high in R1b1a2 M269 she is generalizing their subclade in under western European r1b1a2a1a L11 like what Swedish R1b is. It is then under a subclade after that which was probably spread with italo Celtic languages R1b1a2a1a2 P312/S116 then their in another subclade under that R1b1a2a1a2a Df27 then there under even deeper subclades mainly very deep M153 and SRY2627. So no way did they get those while in the Balkans and separately from Indo European western Europeans. Since Basque and proto Basque or whatever speakers had been surrounded by R1b Df27 and R1b L21 Celts I think since 3,500-4,500ybp that could be were they get their Indo European barrel words but I am not a linguistic. Also not a surprise they are so high in R1b S116 Celts can adopt native language no big deal. It seems they did that in eastern Iberia too and western France since actulley the language family Basque are apart of used to be spoken in almost all of the west coast of France. If anything I would think it has a root in pre Celtic people in France not Iberia so not in the same family as Iberian languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    U got to be kidding me. Sure it is possible proto Indo European speakers were in that zone during the copper age and may have been very high in R1b1a2a L23!!! Sure it is a possibility I don't know any strong evidence that the Basque language is from copper age Balkans. .....
    There are a lot of speculations on the origins of the pre-Basque language but no one really knows. I really recommend you read Jean's book. You'll see that she is not claiming any high level of certainty about the origin of the Basques... quite the opposite so I don't understand your incredulous reponse. There are many things to read about the Basque languages and theories on it. It's got to be hard for you to comment if you don't do the reading.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Actulley I never read and I have always hated reading since I could read. That is why I hate English class I uselly don't read the books I just get an idea from listing to people in class in clip notes which works out....
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post14387

    Your postings seem to always go back to a heavy focus on your theme of "Spread of Germano Italo Celtic" so I'm going to move your posts that focus on that over to your thread where it is on topic: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...western-Europe

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    Some of the research about placenames in the Spanish basque country points to them having Celtic origins. It's been suggested that a process of Vascoisation happened in the period after the fall of Roman Empire eg. Migration of Basque (Proto-Basque?) speakers out of Aquitaine into North-East Spain where over time assimilated the local population. In such a scenario it wouldn't be surprising that you have haplgroups associated with IE speakers (Celtic in this case) showing up among Basques.

    There are clear loanwords in Basque that have Celtic origins. The word for bear for example (if I remember correctly).

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    Is anyone aware of which subclades of L21 are found amongst the basque? As Mike mentioned we have M153 and now it appears DF81 is amongst the basque populations, SRY2627 is found in Aquitane and is generally found throughout the Pyrenees. These represent DF27, but what about L21. I have not found a study to date that lists those specific clades. Mike are there any basque testers in the L21 projects?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Is anyone aware of which subclades of L21 are found amongst the basque? As Mike mentioned we have M153 and now it appears DF81 is amongst the basque populations, SRY2627 is found in Aquitane and is generally found throughout the Pyrenees. These represent DF27, but what about L21. I have not found a study to date that lists those specific clades. Mike are there any basque testers in the L21 projects?
    We have some in the R-L21 Plus Project who belong to an Iberian L21 cluster that I stumbled across a few years ago. They have tested L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534.

    Real quick, one example is Amuchástegui, kit N93033.

    I don't know of any other L21 subclades found among the Basques.

    We also have some Bretons who are Z2534+, as well, but they do not belong to the same haplotype cluster.
    Last edited by rms2; 09-25-2013 at 12:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    We have some in the R-L21 Plus Project who belong to an Iberian L21 cluster that I stumbled across a few years ago. They have tested L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534.

    Real quick, one example is Amuchástegui, kit N93033.

    I don't know of any other L21 subclades found among the Basques.

    We also have some Bretons who are Z2534+, as well, but they do not belong to the same haplotype cluster.
    Below is the main STR based cluster that appears to be Basque oriented. Richard found them a couple of years ago. They are not that old of a cluster. L21 in the Basques does not appear to be old relative to L21 in general. There is no one in this variety that I can find outside of Spain.

    fN93033 Amuchástegui R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534 253-2534-1211 Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina
    f58857 Archuleta R1b-P312>L21 253-2534-1211 Spain, Basque Country, Guipuzcoa, Eibar
    f128223 Calzada R1b-P312>L21 253-2534-1211 Spain
    f66434 Davila R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253 253-2534-1211 Spain
    f82247 Garcia R1b-P312>L21 253-2534-1211 Spain
    f152157 Lopez R1b-P312>L21 253-2534-1211 Spain
    f67597 Robles R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253 253-2534-1211 Spain
    f167768 Romero R1b-P312>L21 253-2534-1211 Spain
    f46334 Sampedro R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253 253-2534-1211 Spain, Cantabria, Matienzo


    There is another decent sized Spanish cluster but they don't appear to be Basque.

    y88NXH De Herrera zzL21suspect z9919-A-SP Spain, Canaries
    fN5681 De la Puerta R1b-P312>L21 z9919-A-SP Spain, Andalucía, Huelva, Cumbres Mayores
    f50251 Delgado zzL21suspect z9919-A-SP Spain, Canary Islands, Tenerife
    f40955 Leal zzL21suspect z9919-A-SP Spain
    yJ45FQ Lopez zzL21suspect z9919-A-SP Spain
    fE2160 López Salgado R1b-P312>L21 z9919-A-SP Spain, Valencia, Alicante, Aldurfe (Lugo)


    My guess is the L21 in the Basques is some kind of latter Celtic (way after the Beakers) intrusion. Maybe they were Gauls of some kind since we do see some of the Z2534+ people in France.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 09-25-2013 at 01:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    . . .

    My guess is the L21 in the Basques is some kind of latter Celtic (way after the Beakers) intrusion. Maybe they were Gauls of some kind since we do see some of the Z2534+ people in France.
    I believe that is right. It goes back to what Paul (Dubhthach) said a couple of posts back about the Vascoization of some Celts in northern Spain

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    Here is something else from Jean's book, "Ancestral Journeys...".
    "One genome-wide study of Spanish Basques did not find them particularly differentiated from other Iberian populations.
    ...
    The French and Spanish Basques do form a homogenous group, which can be distinguished from non-Spanish European populations (such as French and Sardinian) to roughly the same degree that these populations can be distinguished from each other.
    Still, they are modern people, not an ancient one miraculously preserved."

    I think her conclusion hits it on the head.

    I still think there is something important here to glean, though. Jean speaks of the Basques and the Sardinians. Essentially, they are island remnants of something different. They are NOT entirely different from Europeans in general but they have some anomalies worth noting.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 09-25-2013 at 05:56 PM.

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