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Thread: Me vs. Some South Asian People

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJRocks760 View Post
    I'm Pakistani descent. I love the Hindu festivals so I celebrate with my Indian friends and then Eid etc with my family. I don't identify as either religiously though.

    My biological anthropology professor believed in the out of india theory and he was Australian born. Regardless, that class really got me interested in the evolution of human species and the migration pathways of humans Out of Africa. Ever since watching Bill Nye the eyes of nye episode on race I had been wanting to do my own test. But that class got me interested and Spencer Wells documentary Journey of Man was a recommended documentary for me in class. In it he travels to India to do dna testing and that sort of opened my eyes as well. My professor seemed pretty level headed he taught out of africa theory quite well so I was pretty surprised when a student asked his views and he didn't accept himself what he was teaching in class. To me he was a good educator even though likely wrong.






    This is fascinating for me but if I have to be attacked by people who I know including family and friends I don't want to be apart of it.
    The Out of India Theory is unfortunately politically motivated, it is not unlike an Indian version of Eurocentrism or Afrocentrism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    I don't even know where to start on all the bogus crap I see coming from South Asians regarding genetics and ethnicity.
    You have people claiming Pakistanis and North Indians are the exact same. You have people claiming there are "Aryans" and "Dravidians" in India which are supposedly two distinct races. Some people claiming that north Indians are heavily mixed with recent invaders like Greeks and Moghuls.

    Then there are people claiming all kinds of foreign ancestry which rarely, if ever, turns out to be real. And of course every other Indian on the internet insisting that they don't "look Indian" and that they look "Persian, Greek, or Italian" when they just look like the guy from Harold and Kumar.

    Am I alone in feeling like our community is a lost cause when it comes to education?
    Pakistanis and North Indians are very similar though, especially Punjabis on both sides of the border. I have family in Lahore who have married local Punjabis (I think Khokhars if I recall) so they are pretty assimilated.

    In Britain we have both Indian and Pakistani Punjabis, it is difficult to tell the difference sometimes even as someone who is from Delhi originally where there are many Punjabis (some of whom originate from what is now Pakistan).


    Quote Originally Posted by TJRocks760 View Post
    Honestly, it's the "you're trying to be white," mentality that might be stopping South Asians from getting that education. I was talking to a Paki girl the other day who wishes she was arab or persian rather than Paki. But, the question is where's this coming from? I've talked to others who refuse to strictly identify as Paki but instead claim Italian heritage when clearly that's not the case.

    On a side note, my lithuanian friend just found out that he has Italian heritage. Our other Italian friend said he can accept him into the Italian community. So, as a joke I claimed 0.03% Italian so they can claim me as one of theirs.
    It doesn't help integration in Britain I feel, if they are concerned with claiming a mythical Arabic or Persian ancestor to feel different from both Indians and people here, check this video out:

    Last edited by deuterium_1; 03-14-2018 at 08:17 AM.

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  3. #12
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    Pakistanis and North Indians are very similar though, especially Punjabis on both sides of the border. I have family in Lahore who have married local Punjabis (I think Khokhars if I recall) so they are pretty assimilated.

    In Britain we have both Indian and Pakistani Punjabis, it is difficult to tell the difference sometimes even as someone who is from Delhi originally where there are many Punjabis (some of whom originate from what is now Pakistan).
    Well I think a distinction can be made between Northwest Indians and north Indians as a whole. North India also includes Uttar Pradesh and in many definitions Bihar. Those people are different from Pakistani Punjabis. And Punjabis are the closest to North Indians after Muhajirs. When you consider Sindhis, Pashtuns, and Baluch, the notion falls apart pretty quickly.

    I guess what really bothers me about this whole thing is that it always starts with someone saying "Pakistanis are much lighter than Indians" and some Indian inevitably replies back with "No, Pakistanis are different from south Indians but Pakistanis and North Indians are exactly the same". Something about this seems self hating and delusional, especially when people from the NW of the subcontinent have a different look and genetics compared to those in the North Central region.

    Basically it is a kind of political move by a lot of North Indians to distance themselves from South Indians and allow themselves to feel superior.

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    Well I think a distinction can be made between Northwest Indians and north Indians as a whole. North India also includes Uttar Pradesh and in many definitions Bihar. Those people are different from Pakistani Punjabis. And Punjabis are the closest to North Indians after Muhajirs. When you consider Sindhis, Pashtuns, and Baluch, the notion falls apart pretty quickly.

    I guess what really bothers me about this whole thing is that it always starts with someone saying "Pakistanis are much lighter than Indians" and some Indian inevitably replies back with "No, Pakistanis are different from south Indians but Pakistanis and North Indians are exactly the same". Something about this seems self hating and delusional, especially when people from the NW of the subcontinent have a different look and genetics compared to those in the North Central region.

    Basically it is a kind of political move by a lot of North Indians to distance themselves from South Indians and allow themselves to feel superior.
    South Indians and Dalits are proxy for the indigenous South Asians who sit on the bottom of the South Asian social ladder.

    Given that all SAs are technically mixed-race, some much more than others, this gives us tremendous insecurities about our self-perception like it does with other admixed groups

    You have people trying to associate with pure ancestries such as Indo-Aryans with the Vedic Aryans and some Tamils with Lemuria

    Agree, the whole term 'North India' is a misnomer more to be used as a proxy for Indo-Aryans who do form a cultural bloc but differ quite a bit in phenotype among themselves.

    Punjabis, Kashmiris, Paharis and Haryanvis are used to stereotype North Indians, excluding other Indo-Aryans from Central, East and communities in West India who form the majority

    From what I've observed South Indians do consider North Indians to be fairer skinned and different of appearance, but not significantly different. This might be due to most South Indians interacting more with Indo-Aryans such as Marathis, Biharis and UP people and less so Punjabis and Pahari people.

    Ask anyone in Delhi how phenotype changes the moment you take a bus to Agra and enter UP, you know there are distinct 'looks' in India associated with regions and further structured by caste, NW, North-Central, East, West, South with regional overlaps. Genetics is consistent with this.

    However in countries like UK, Australia and Canada where Punjabis form a large proportion of SA diaspora and the majority of North Indians, Punjabis technically are statistically the proxy for North Indians and when you say North Indian here you're generally referring to Punjabis whether Hindu or Sikh.

    Are Pakistanis fairer than Indians? - on the whole yes this true and they also have less ASI ancestry on average, though this is probably due to old West Eurasian rather than recent Turco-Arab-Persian ancestry. The variation between them and NW Indians however is not much, and they do have old ASI pockets shown by samples such as PJL though they aren't numerically the majority like with India
    Last edited by bmoney; 03-14-2018 at 10:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    I don't even know where to start on all the bogus crap I see coming from South Asians regarding genetics and ethnicity.
    You have people claiming Pakistanis and North Indians are the exact same. You have people claiming there are "Aryans" and "Dravidians" in India which are supposedly two distinct races. Some people claiming that north Indians are heavily mixed with recent invaders like Greeks and Moghuls.

    Then there are people claiming all kinds of foreign ancestry which rarely, if ever, turns out to be real. And of course every other Indian on the internet insisting that they don't "look Indian" and that they look "Persian, Greek, or Italian" when they just look like the guy from Harold and Kumar.

    Am I alone in feeling like our community is a lost cause when it comes to education?
    LOLL - to play the devils advocate Indo-Aryans do have a recent admixture wave the Dravidians did not receive (Moorjani) - if you look at any PCA you will see a north bloc, east bloc and south bloc with decent overlap among them all, but general regions corresponding to geography.

    Except maybe Dalits who Razib has said rarely differ whether from UP or Tamil Nadu, and of course Brahmin South Indians who have the steppe signal

    So to generalise - yes there is a concept such as Dravidians who are two way ancient West Eurasian (Iran_N) + ASI and Indo-Aryans who are 3-way ancient West Eurasian (Iran_N) + ASI + Steppe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    Well I think a distinction can be made between Northwest Indians and north Indians as a whole. North India also includes Uttar Pradesh and in many definitions Bihar. Those people are different from Pakistani Punjabis. And Punjabis are the closest to North Indians after Muhajirs. When you consider Sindhis, Pashtuns, and Baluch, the notion falls apart pretty quickly.

    I guess what really bothers me about this whole thing is that it always starts with someone saying "Pakistanis are much lighter than Indians" and some Indian inevitably replies back with "No, Pakistanis are different from south Indians but Pakistanis and North Indians are exactly the same". Something about this seems self hating and delusional, especially when people from the NW of the subcontinent have a different look and genetics compared to those in the North Central region.

    Basically it is a kind of political move by a lot of North Indians to distance themselves from South Indians and allow themselves to feel superior.
    Sindhis are also pretty close to North Indians too, in terms of phenotypes some look like their North Indian neighbours too.

    They do resemble each other a lot to be honest. Even some Kashmiris can resemble Punjabis, I recall reading on these forums that there may be some genetic affiliation between both groups too?. There is definitely evidence of migration between both regions, one example being Nawaz Sharif:

    PrimeMinisterNawazSharif.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    South Indians and Dalits are proxy for the indigenous South Asians who sit on the bottom of the South Asian social ladder.

    Given that all SAs are technically mixed-race, some much more than others, this gives us tremendous insecurities about our self-perception like it does with other admixed groups

    You have people trying to associate with pure ancestries such as Indo-Aryans with the Vedic Aryans and some Tamils with Lemuria

    Agree, the whole term 'North India' is a misnomer more to be used as a proxy for Indo-Aryans who do form a cultural bloc but differ quite a bit in phenotype among themselves.

    Punjabis, Kashmiris, Paharis and Haryanvis are used to stereotype North Indians, excluding other Indo-Aryans from Central, East and communities in West India who form the majority

    From what I've observed South Indians do consider North Indians to be fairer skinned and different of appearance, but not significantly different. This might be due to most South Indians interacting more with Indo-Aryans such as Marathis, Biharis and UP people and less so Punjabis and Pahari people.

    Ask anyone in Delhi how phenotype changes the moment you take a bus to Agra and enter UP, you know there are distinct 'looks' in India associated with regions and further structured by caste, NW, North-Central, East, West, South with regional overlaps. Genetics is consistent with this.

    However in countries like UK, Australia and Canada where Punjabis form a large proportion of SA diaspora and the majority of North Indians, Punjabis technically are statistically the proxy for North Indians and when you say North Indian here you're generally referring to Punjabis whether Hindu or Sikh.

    Are Pakistanis fairer than Indians? - on the whole yes this true and they also have less ASI ancestry on average, though this is probably due to old West Eurasian rather than recent Turco-Arab-Persian ancestry. The variation between them and NW Indians however is not much, and they do have old ASI pockets shown by samples such as PJL though they aren't numerically the majority like with India
    From what I have seen on these forums, there have only been a handful of samples which do show some Persian or Arabi ancestry. It is generally in regions on the western coast of India which are known to have had trade links with the Arabian Peninsula since antiquity.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    LOLL - to play the devils advocate Indo-Aryans do have a recent admixture wave the Dravidians did not receive (Moorjani) - if you look at any PCA you will see a north bloc, east bloc and south bloc with decent overlap among them all, but general regions corresponding to geography.

    Except maybe Dalits who Razib has said rarely differ whether from UP or Tamil Nadu, and of course Brahmin South Indians who have the steppe signal

    So to generalise - yes there is a concept such as Dravidians who are two way ancient West Eurasian (Iran_N) + ASI and Indo-Aryans who are 3-way ancient West Eurasian (Iran_N) + ASI + Steppe
    My maternal side despite being Bihari do resemble Punjabis somewhat in terms of phenotype. I posted my grandfather's DNA results in another thread and it probably reflects endogamy practices in his family which preserved their Pre-Islamic caste identity.

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    Issue with South Asians is that aside from some minority like us which probably makes up .0001% of the SA population, no one else knows about genetics and always go with phenotypes. With a subcontinent of over a billion of people, of such mixed heritages, it is very easy for atypicals to pop up or certain community preserves certain looks regardless of their genetics.

    If you talk to a regular joe, he will look at only the phenotype, and would associate genetics with that. Hence you have have communities in SA especially muslims claiming such exotic lineages, but in reality very small percentages have mix, which is usually very diluted as well unless someone is recently mixed like Khana's family. In old times you could just move from one kingdom to other kingdom and claim to be any Caste or community you'd like. Let's say a Dalit moves from Punjab (who can look like other punjabis) moves to old time Karnataka and claims to be brahmin. There is no way to verify him since it was very easy to lie and no one would go to Punjab to verify it. Now this Dalit will marry with local Brahmin community and his genetics will become part of that community.

    I usually post straight forward harsh replies because being on anthro forums for almost 6-7 years now I have seen amazing claims which makes no sense, and so have I seen exotic claims among muslim population of SA. Good chunk of muslims I meet from karachi claim to be syed, then you have someone from Bengal claiming to be Turkish while scoring exactly like a Bengali. Where did this inferiority came from? People who were from privileged communities, when they converted to Islam they either kept their last names like Muslim punjabis or knew they converted. So such claims does not come from them.

    Redifflal's comment reminds me of my talk with my mom when my results came in, when I told her I score almost identical to a Punjabi Brahmin, and very similar to Kashmiris. She was like "Oh that means we're from Brahmin background, because Hindu Tarkhans claim to be descendant of Brahmins". I facepalmed but I don't blame her. It just helps pushing the agenda and a normal person would interrupt it in a way they would like. On my journey on anthroforums, I have posted my pic, my family pics, and phenotypically they were guessed between straight from balkans to afghanistan and in between. I have been called half chinese or full bengali phenotypically. My genetics speak otherwise.

    That is why I'm against the comfort of using phenotype to guess genetics or ancestry. If you have legit ancestry, it will show in results, if not it won't. Still at the end of the day 99% of you is South Asian, stop hating that side.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    Well I think a distinction can be made between Northwest Indians and north Indians as a whole. North India also includes Uttar Pradesh and in many definitions Bihar. Those people are different from Pakistani Punjabis. And Punjabis are the closest to North Indians after Muhajirs. When you consider Sindhis, Pashtuns, and Baluch, the notion falls apart pretty quickly.

    I guess what really bothers me about this whole thing is that it always starts with someone saying "Pakistanis are much lighter than Indians" and some Indian inevitably replies back with "No, Pakistanis are different from south Indians but Pakistanis and North Indians are exactly the same". Something about this seems self hating and delusional, especially when people from the NW of the subcontinent have a different look and genetics compared to those in the North Central region.

    Basically it is a kind of political move by a lot of North Indians to distance themselves from South Indians and allow themselves to feel superior.
    I never considered UP or Bihar to be part of North India. UP is a huge region, West UP is more North India like. In terms of general population, excluding khana like families which are not huge in numbers, the lowest SI scoring South Asians are Sindhi Hindus and Hindu jats from Rajasthan. The highest Euro and caucasian scoring Individuals are Hindu jats and Sindhi Hindus/Punjabi Khatris. We've a huge database of Punjabis and Kashmiri samples of both sides, and they are completely identical except couple of samples which are obviously mixed because of migration of Pashtuns or Balochs in provinces like west Punjab or Azad kashmir.

    As in terms of looks both Pakistani and Indian Punjabis confirmed you can't distinguish Punjabis from each other unless they are wearing a religious attire or accessory that makes it obvious. Kenji.aryan was a Himachali brahmin, looked like someone from Dardic regions, but was more SI or east asian than average punjabi. If he was muslim he could've claimed any exotic ancestry he wants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJRocks760 View Post
    Hey all,

    I hesitated to ask this, but I want to get this off my chest mainly because I'm hoping others could relate.

    So, I've had some discussion over the past year with family and other people about some of my results. I showed them my GedMatch results or talked about the little info I have about ANI and ASI for South Asians.

    Perhaps I'm doing it the wrong way or perhaps I shouldn't discuss it ever at all. But, it seems as though the South Asians I talk to will listen to what I have to say at first and then later it's like they're a whole new person. The discussion is exciting at first but then they almost attack me saying things like I'm, "trying to be white."

    I don't even know what to say to that.
    LOL... It might surprise you that I -- the guy who types all day about this stuff on this forum, whose posts get reposted on other forums, write about this in r/Pakistan on Reddit, and reply to e-mails all day from Gedmatch -- haven't figured out how to talk about this too much with my own family, a family that is actually interested in the results (I mean how else did I get so many old people to test), -- and a family unburdened by pre-existing notions of caste or ethnic dynamics.

    When I am visiting my family... the majority of the people whose results I post are sitting in the same room as me having chai. Sometimes, it comes up, "so how is all that DNA stuff coming", my mother will wonder why I tested her sister and not her, and various cousins will all be vying to be next. The first cousin I recently tested has 2 other brothers... all 3 were arguing for me to pick them over the other brother hahah. But when the topic comes up, I just give a little general breakdown... partially because it's very hard to simplify for someone who has no idea of the terminology. So you have to speak in metaphors or generalizations and you have be careful to be clear enough so that an incorrect implication is not conveyed (explaining the magnitude of a difference/similarity is not easy to covey).

    However, it really comes down to this: how do I explain to them that autosomally they are so different from each other...? On this forum, Sadia and Balqees' results are seen as 2 extreme polar opposite results of people in South Asia... in my real life... Sadia and Balqees are 2 old ladies that like eating bakarkhani, probably see each other a couple times a week, and love yelling at me to get married. It may blow your mind that Sadia -- the undisputed ASI queen of my family -- is considerably fairer-skinned than Balqees -- the undisputed Steppe queen -- phenotypes people? hahahaha.

    Literally, I told my family when I know more (crosses fingers for good genomes from Rakighari) I will make a power point presentation for everyone and actually write up a detailed explanation going from the basics and building up to a discussion of the complexities. Giving bits and pieces here and there, leaves rooms for twisting, and unintentional spreading of misinformation. There is no other way to really bring someone into this niche world we are in without really attempting to give them the knowledge necessary to process it first.

    In short, it easy to talk about this stuff with other people also in this "journey of knowledge", but I don't feel knowledgeable enough to confidently explain any of this to an "outsider" yet, such that I don't feel worried about the consequences of them repeating my words to another.
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 03-14-2018 at 10:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    I never considered UP or Bihar to be part of North India. UP is a huge region, West UP is more North India like. In terms of general population, excluding khana like families which are not huge in numbers, the lowest SI scoring South Asians are Sindhi Hindus and Hindu jats from Rajasthan. The highest Euro and caucasian scoring Individuals are Hindu jats and Sindhi Hindus/Punjabi Khatris. We've a huge database of Punjabis and Kashmiri samples of both sides, and they are completely identical except couple of samples which are obviously mixed because of migration of Pashtuns or Balochs in provinces like west Punjab or Azad kashmir.

    As in terms of looks both Pakistani and Indian Punjabis confirmed you can't distinguish Punjabis from each other unless they are wearing a religious attire or accessory that makes it obvious. Kenji.aryan was a Himachali brahmin, looked like someone from Dardic regions, but was more SI or east asian than average punjabi. If he was muslim he could've claimed any exotic ancestry he wants.
    I understand Punjabis on both sides are the same. I’m also aware how much phenotype can vary within the same region. My own mom’s side resemble East Indians much more than Marathis. However there is a general acknowledgement that different subcontinental regions have an overall different look. No one has a problem admitting Gujus look different from Orissans but for some reason people get butthurt when someone suggests that Pakistani Punjabis look different from UP people? Why?

    Worst is that there is a hypocrisy where certain(not all) North Indians love to proclaim how different they look from South Indians like me but get very defensive at any hint that Pakistanis are phenotypically more Caucasian compared to them. I see this a lot among self hating Indians and Hindu nationalists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Issue with South Asians is that aside from some minority like us which probably makes up .0001% of the SA population, no one else knows about genetics and always go with phenotypes. With a subcontinent of over a billion of people, of such mixed heritages, it is very easy for atypicals to pop up or certain community preserves certain looks regardless of their genetics.

    If you talk to a regular joe, he will look at only the phenotype, and would associate genetics with that. Hence you have have communities in SA especially muslims claiming such exotic lineages, but in reality very small percentages have mix, which is usually very diluted as well unless someone is recently mixed like Khana's family. In old times you could just move from one kingdom to other kingdom and claim to be any Caste or community you'd like. Let's say a Dalit moves from Punjab (who can look like other punjabis) moves to old time Karnataka and claims to be brahmin. There is no way to verify him since it was very easy to lie and no one would go to Punjab to verify it. Now this Dalit will marry with local Brahmin community and his genetics will become part of that community.

    I usually post straight forward harsh replies because being on anthro forums for almost 6-7 years now I have seen amazing claims which makes no sense, and so have I seen exotic claims among muslim population of SA. Good chunk of muslims I meet from karachi claim to be syed, then you have someone from Bengal claiming to be Turkish while scoring exactly like a Bengali. Where did this inferiority came from? People who were from privileged communities, when they converted to Islam they either kept their last names like Muslim punjabis or knew they converted. So such claims does not come from them.

    Redifflal's comment reminds me of my talk with my mom when my results came in, when I told her I score almost identical to a Punjabi Brahmin, and very similar to Kashmiris. She was like "Oh that means we're from Brahmin background, because Hindu Tarkhans claim to be descendant of Brahmins". I facepalmed but I don't blame her. It just helps pushing the agenda and a normal person would interrupt it in a way they would like. On my journey on anthroforums, I have posted my pic, my family pics, and phenotypically they were guessed between straight from balkans to afghanistan and in between. I have been called half chinese or full bengali phenotypically. My genetics speak otherwise.

    That is why I'm against the comfort of using phenotype to guess genetics or ancestry. If you have legit ancestry, it will show in results, if not it won't. Still at the end of the day 99% of you is South Asian, stop hating that side.
    I hinted at phenotypes because some Muslims like to attribute fair skin complexion to a foreign ancestor from the Middle East or Central Asia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    I understand Punjabis on both sides are the same. I’m also aware how much phenotype can vary within the same region. My own mom’s side resemble East Indians much more than Marathis. However there is a general acknowledgement that different subcontinental regions have an overall different look. No one has a problem admitting Gujus look different from Orissans but for some reason people get butthurt when someone suggests that Pakistani Punjabis look different from UP people? Why?

    Worst is that there is a hypocrisy where certain(not all) North Indians love to proclaim how different they look from South Indians like me but get very defensive at any hint that Pakistanis are phenotypically more Caucasian compared to them. I see this a lot among self hating Indians and Hindu nationalists.
    As someone of part UPite heritage, the state is divided into several regions including Awadh and Purvanchal which can be quite different from each other in some ways. Purvanchal for example has a substantial amount of Bhojpuri speakers while Awadh was historically a centre of Urdu speakers east of Delhi.

    I haven't come across Pakistani Punjabis being compare to UPite people but between "mohajirs" and UPites it could make sense as some families did migrate to Pakistan from that region. There is still a strong affinity between Punjabis from both sides of the border especially when they meet such as in the UK.

    I witnessed this during a recent family wedding where guests from Indian and Pakistan Punjab were conversing with each other in Punjabi.

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