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Thread: Ancient DNA from North Africa (this time with formal stats)

  1. #341
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    Yeah, but those Guanches were all dated to 1,000 - 1,400 years ago, so using them as a representative sample of proto-Berbers is a stretch. And you can already see in the screenshots posted above that at higher Ks their SSA ancestry just gets sublimated to a Taforalt component anyway. If David runs these guys again with Taforalt, IAM, and KEB and they still come out heavily SSA then whatever, but based on what we're already seeing with those higher K admix runs I doubt it.

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    I agree, the Gaunches don’t say much about proto-Berbers, but they do give us an idea about what the pre-Islamic Maghreb might have looked like, at least a segment of it. These guys are dated to 700 - 1100 CE but their ancestors are thought to have migrated to the Canary Islands circa 500 BC and remained largely isolated until the Spanish colonization of the island. I am using my phone, so I can’t see all of the tables with the exception of those that rz1706 posted, but from what I can see, the Gaunches still have some of the SSA “orange” in the higher Ks (=7) (which is absent in the KEB, all of theirs is swallowed by the Taforalt artifact), although slightly less than their modern counterparts. From what I can tell, while modern-day Maghrebis received some gene-flow vis-a-vie the slave trade, most of their African ancestry can be attributed to much earlier events (that is from the Iberomaurusians and whatever gene-flow introduced L3b into the North African gene-pool).

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  4. #343
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    If the proportion of Slave trade SSA in North Africans is that important to some, I'd suggest trying to find how much European Admixture they (North Africans) have dating to the slave trade and compare. Slave trade SSA should be less than or equal to that.

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    As already stated, the Taforalt samples are very homogeneous which supports a much older genesis, isolation and drift. While the IAM ones look stretched out between Taforalt and modern North Africans, due to more "recent" Natufian-like early Levantine Neolithic ancestry.
    The Guanches samples also show some small variation - similar to modern Maghrebis - stretching from modern North Africans to something slightly more Eurasian, outside modern continental Berber variation but still clearly North African.
    So either incomplete homogenization in the Canaries or multiple waves of similar but slightly different NW African pops followed by isolation between the communities.

    Before any Islamic Era West African gene flow, one should figure out the impact of the Green Sahara, which surely brought African ancestry not present in the Taforalt/IAM pool (but present in the Guanches).
    What is sure though is we shouldn't expect total continuity on the African side just like there is still Eurasian gene flow in North Africa well into the Bronze and maybe Iron Age as shown by the steppes-related ancestry in modern Berbers.
    The Guanches might represent a snapshot of [parts of] Northwest Africa pre-Phoenician/Roman times, before all modern Berber dialects/languages broke up and diversified and before E-M81 replaced most of the y-DNA haplogroup diversity.

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  8. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignis90 View Post
    What is sure though is we shouldn't expect total continuity on the African side just like there is still Eurasian gene flow in North Africa well into the Bronze and maybe Iron Age as shown by the steppes-related ancestry in modern Berbers.
    Eurasian gene flow continuing throughout the historic period, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Jews, Arabs, expelled Moors, captives of the Barbary pirates, renegade Christians, etc, should all add up.

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    The data from the Fregel paper is available at the ENA databank.
    Last edited by blackflash16; 06-14-2018 at 03:29 PM.

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  11. #347
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    Let's hope David will have time to include these new genomes into Global 25 soon....
    Geno 2.0: Mediterranean 48%, North Euro 25%, SWAsian 16%, SSA 9%
    Basal K7: Basal 43.7%, Villabruna 42.7%, ANE 7.7%, SSA 4.7%, EastEurasian 1%
    Global 25 Ancient: Later Stone Age Northwest Africa (Iberomaurusian) 10%, Neolithic Levant 15%, Bronze Age Western Europe 70%, SSA 5%

    Il est très rare que l'ethnie à laquelle appartient l'auteur racialiste ne se trouve pas au sommet de sa hiérarchie., T.Todorov

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  13. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuaMan View Post
    Yeah, but those Guanches were all dated to 1,000 - 1,400 years ago, so using them as a representative sample of proto-Berbers is a stretch. And you can already see in the screenshots posted above that at higher Ks their SSA ancestry just gets sublimated to a Taforalt component anyway. If David runs these guys again with Taforalt, IAM, and KEB and they still come out heavily SSA then whatever, but based on what we're already seeing with those higher K admix runs I doubt it.
    IIRC , the conclusion of the Guanches paper ( and others from it ) was that the mtdna was from the islands and the Ydna was from iberia ............

    European - 99.2%............Central Asian - 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .......T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .....K1a4
    Grandfather-Maternal ......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-M512

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Has KEB6 changed from ydna of T-M184 . mtdna K1a4 living on the atlantic coast to something else?
    still the same

    T-M184 KEB6 genome from Neolithic Kelif el Boroud.Belongs to P77 branch.
    M70+, L162+, L208+, Y4119+, CTS2214+, Z709+, Z710+, L906+, Y4984+, P77+
    According to the authors, the Neolithic ancient KEB6 individual, belonged to a group that crossed the strait of Gibraltar from Iberian Peninsula to North Africa.
    Mtdna is K1a4a1

    Also as stated in paper, matches a "Tuscan" NA20520

    European - 99.2%............Central Asian - 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .......T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .....K1a4
    Grandfather-Maternal ......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-M512

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    IIRC , the conclusion of the Guanches paper ( and others from it ) was that the mtdna was from the islands and the Ydna was from iberia ............
    Not really.... This is only true for modern Canarians (mainly mtDna U6 and only about 10% E-M81 Ydna). But regarding Guanches, both mtDna and Ydna are mainly from North africa in addition to autosomal Dna.

    https://www.cell.com/current-biology...822(17)31257-5

    "Previously published ancient DNA analyses of uniparental genetic markers have shown that the Guanches carried common North African Y chromosome markers (E-M81, E-M78, and J-M267) and mitochondrial lineages such as U6b, in addition to common Eurasian haplogroups... Our results show that the Guanches were genetically similar over time and that they display the greatest genetic affinity to extant Northwest Africans, strongly supporting the hypothesis of a Berber-like origin. We also estimate that the Guanches have contributed 16%–31% autosomal ancestry to modern Canary Islanders, here represented by two individuals from Gran Canaria."
    Last edited by rz1706; 06-14-2018 at 05:48 PM.
    Geno 2.0: Mediterranean 48%, North Euro 25%, SWAsian 16%, SSA 9%
    Basal K7: Basal 43.7%, Villabruna 42.7%, ANE 7.7%, SSA 4.7%, EastEurasian 1%
    Global 25 Ancient: Later Stone Age Northwest Africa (Iberomaurusian) 10%, Neolithic Levant 15%, Bronze Age Western Europe 70%, SSA 5%

    Il est très rare que l'ethnie à laquelle appartient l'auteur racialiste ne se trouve pas au sommet de sa hiérarchie., T.Todorov

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