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Thread: R1b-L11: Where from?

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    We can safely put Baden and its predecessor Protoboleraz to bed as far as having contributed to R1b:

    Sample Culture Y-DNA
    I2788 Protoboleraz_LCA G2a2b2a
    I2789 Protoboleraz_LCA I2c
    I2791 Protoboleraz_LCA I2c
    I2366 Baden_LCA G2a2b2a1a1b1
    I2367 Baden_LCA G2a2b2a1a
    I2369 Baden_LCA G2a2b2a1a1c1a
    I2371 Baden_LCA G2a2a
    I2752 Baden_LCA I2a1
    I2753 Baden_LCA I2a1a1
    I2368 Baden_LCA G2a2b2a
    I2754 Baden_LCA I2
    I2755 Baden_LCA I
    Of course, I never thought of Baden as a source of R1b, but rather as a possible contributor to the Neolithic farmer component in BB. Has anyone used the autosomal data from these folks for any comparisons?

    I guess those come from Mathieson. I was looking at Jean M's web site, which I guess hasn't been updated in awhile, because last time I looked it had just one Baden sample, which I believe was a female.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    To add to this discussion, Richard Rocca has just discovered the oldest U106 so far; and on top of that it's a Bell Beaker sample 30 miles North northwest of Prague, Czech Republic.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post368497

    Bell Beaker sample I7288 from Radovesice, Czech Republic is Z9+. As you guys know, U106 is a pretty large group under U106 > L48. He is dated to 2500–2200 BCE. YTree has Z9 forming around 2700 BC. There are very few reads in this sample aside from the already published CTS11468 which is at the same level as M269.
    How sure is Rich of that? It sounds pretty weak.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Bell Beaker settlement pattern in Bohemia and Moravia

    . . . THERE ARE CERTAIN FORMAL DIFFERENCES IN BETWEEN THE CORDED WARE AND BELL BEAKER MATERIAL CULTURE AND BURIAL RITES, HOWEVER THESE CHANGES OCCURRED WITHIN THE SAME SYMBOLIC SYSTEM. IT IS PROBABLE THAT THE ORIGIN OF THE BELL BEAKER CULTURE IN BOHEMIA AND MORAVIA IS AS A RESULT OF INTERNAL CHANGES WITHIN THE SAME SOCIETY . . .

    https://www.academia.edu/503317/Bell...ia_and_Moravia
    That makes sense, given the obvious similarities between Corded Ware and Bell Beaker, and it is nice to see a straightforward statement of that hypothesis.

    The problem right now is that one of those "internal changes" appears to have been a complete switch in y-dna haplogroups.

    I wish the researchers would tackle Corded Ware the way Olalde et al tackled Bell Beaker. While they're at it, they could take on Yamnaya on the Pontic steppe and in the Carpathian basin, as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Of course, I never thought of Baden as a source of R1b, but rather as a possible contributor to the Neolithic farmer component in BB. Has anyone used the autosomal data from these folks for any comparisons?

    I guess those come from Mathieson. I was looking at Jean M's web site, which I guess hasn't been updated in awhile, because last time I looked it had just one Baden sample, which I believe was a female.
    Male.
    Jean's site seems to be down at the moment, but I remember the Baden sample and had quoted it earlier because he shares a similar mtDNA:

    ID Population Site Date Sex Mt Hap Y Hap Cov. HG% ALD Ref
    GEN15a Baden Budakal´asz-Luppa cs´arda 3367–3103 M J2a1a1 G2a2b2a1a1c1a 1.66 10.9±1.7 22±9.2
    3.-K11 Iberia CA La Chabola de la Hechicera 3627–3363 F J2a1a1 .. 0.12 24.7±2.5 30±12
    LY.II.A.10.15067 Iberia CA Las Yurdinas II 3350–2750 F J2a1a1 .. 0.30 24.1±2.0 ±

    ^^I have not seen J2a1a1 (or any of its subclades) show up in anything central/north Beaker or CWC although it's very present in the Baltic region now ... it does show up in an Egyptian mummy dated to 1388 BC. No idea what that's about...
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

  6. #75
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    As I recall, the Baden entry at Jean M's web site had no y-dna info.

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    It's from "Parallel ancient genomic transects reveal complex population history of early European farmers" Mark Lipson, et al
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Bell Beaker settlement pattern in Bohemia and Moravia . . .

    https://www.academia.edu/503317/Bell...ia_and_Moravia
    I printed that paper out at work and read it on my train ride home today. I think I may have read it before a couple of years ago, but it made more of an impact today, with all we've learned.

    I found this interesting.

    The relative abundance of the Bell Beaker settlement sites in Moravia may be reflection of the closer relation of this group to the environment of Carpathian Basin, where contemporary settlements with numerous sunken features are common (Cf. KALICZ-SCHREIBER, 1976; ENDRÖD1, 1998).
    Something weird was going on between Moravia and the Carpathian basin.

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    I guess you all have caught the new developments in Bell Beaker via Rich Rocca and his magic computer: a Czech BB U106, I7288 from Radovesice (R1b-Z9), and another U106 from Csepel Island in Hungary, I4178 (R1b-Z18).

    That makes Budapest the champ in ancient R1b-L23 diversity -

    Proto-Nagyrev from Szigetszentmiklós-Üdülősor (Csepel Island, Hungary):

    I7043 (2500-2200 BC) brother of I7041, y-dna R1b-L11xU106,P312, mtDNA H1b1

    Bell Beaker from the same site:

    I7044 (2500-2200 BC) y-dna R1b-Z2109, mtDNA U5b1d1b

    Bell Beaker results from the nearby Csepel Island site of Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary):

    I4178 (2500-2200 BC) y-dna R1b-Z18 (downstream of U106), mtDNA J1c1b1a

    I2787 (2458-2202 BC) y-dna R1b-Z2105, mtDNA T2b

    From just a few miles away at Budapest-Békásmegyer, Királyok útja:

    I2365 (2465-2205 BC) male, one bell beaker, one urn, one bowl, and one Vinkovci-Somogyvar/Proto-Nagyrev jug; y-dna R1b-L2, mtDNA V3

    So we have two different kinds of Z2103 (Z2105 and Z2109) and three different kinds of L11 (P312, U106, and L11xP312,U106) all there in the Budapest area.

    And all of them have plenty of steppe dna.
    Last edited by rms2; 03-24-2018 at 02:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    . . . (I use the appellation Kurgan Bell Beaker to distinguish it, the Bell Beaker with R1b-M269 and steppe dna, from the early Iberian Bell Beaker of the collective Neolithic tombs that was mostly I2a and had no steppe dna.) . . .
    I mentioned my use of the term Kurgan Bell Beaker in the OP. No one else has adopted it, and that's fine, but I would point out that when I use it you know exactly what I am talking about. There's no confusion and no need to go into a long-winded explanation about the differences between early Iberian, Neolithic, collective tomb, gracile-Mediterranean-type-skeleton Bell Beaker and non-Iberian Bell Beaker.

    And the term non-Iberian Bell Beaker is not good precisely because Iberia eventually acquired Kurgan Bell Beaker of its own which was Iberian because there it was, in Iberia.

    I think it makes things easier to understand, but to each his own.
    Last edited by rms2; 03-24-2018 at 06:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I guess you all have caught the new developments in Bell Beaker via Rich Rocca and his magic computer: a Czech BB U106, I7288 from Radovesice (R1b-Z9), and another U106 from Csepel Island in Hungary, I4178 (R1b-Z18).

    That makes Budapest the champ in ancient R1b-L23 diversity -

    Proto-Nagyrev from Szigetszentmiklós-Üdülősor (Csepel Island, Hungary):

    I7043 (2500-2200 BC) brother of I7041, y-dna R1b-L11xU106,P312, mtDNA H1b1

    Bell Beaker from the same site:

    I7044 (2500-2200 BC) y-dna R1b-Z2109, mtDNA U5b1d1b

    Bell Beaker results from the nearby Csepel Island site of Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary):

    I4178 (2500-2200 BC) y-dna R1b-Z18 (downstream of U106), mtDNA J1c1b1a

    I2787 (2458-2202 BC) y-dna R1b-Z2105, mtDNA T2b

    From just a few miles away at Budapest-Békásmegyer, Királyok útja:

    I2365 (2465-2205 BC) male, one bell beaker, one urn, one bowl, and one Vinkovci-Somogyvar/Proto-Nagyrev jug; y-dna R1b-L2, mtDNA V3

    So we have two different kinds of Z2103 (Z2105 and Z2109) and three different kinds of L11 (P312, U106, and L11xP312,U106) all there in the Budapest area.

    And all of them have plenty of steppe dna.
    To add to the complexity, we also have these non-R1b haplogroups, with the G2a sample being the oldest:

    I3528 G2a2a1a2a1 2559–2301 calBCE Budakalász,*Csajerszke (M0 Site 12)*
    I2364 H2 2468–2063 calBCE Budapest-Békásmegyer
    I2786 I2a2a 2458–2205 calBCE Szigetszentmiklós,Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő
    I2741 I2a1a1 2457–2153 calBCE Szigetszentmiklós,Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő

    This one is from the same site as the Proto-Nagyrev samples but was buried in an odd way:

    I7042 I2a1 2500–2200 BCE Szigetszentmiklós-Üdülősor
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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