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Thread: R1b-L11: Where from?

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    Question R1b-L11: Where from?

    Thus far the oldest R1b-L11 has been found in two ancient cultures of the 3rd millennium BC: Kurgan Bell Beaker and Proto-Nagyrev. (I use the appellation Kurgan Bell Beaker to distinguish it, the Bell Beaker with R1b-M269 and steppe dna, from the early Iberian Bell Beaker of the collective Neolithic tombs that was mostly I2a and had no steppe dna.)

    Archaeologist Marija Gimbutas attributed Kurgan Bell Beaker to the amalgam of Yamnaya and Vucedol in the Carpathian basin. Proto-Nagyrev represents the transition period between late Vucedol and early Nagyrev.

    So, where did R1b-L11 come from?
     


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    It's interesting given Vucedol's big interest in metals and the v high status of the metallurgist that it did extend into the Czech area. Perhaps Gimbutas was half right and Vucedol influenced CW people around Moravia and gave rise to P312 beaker in Moravia and the appearane of a concentration of high status metalurgist graves there. It would make sense as , although bell beaker has a lot of echos of CW culturally, CW mostly lacked that emphasis on metal working as a high status thing. However, so far, ancient DNA favours L11 as travelling west from the steppes north of the Carpathians. The only way L11 or P312came from Vucedol would be if it moved in a tiny group north and lost its original autosomal signal by 2500BC. Not impossible but..

    Speed reading a few papers it appears both CW and Vudecol were late arrivals in Moravia around 2500BC. That is close to the date the classic bell beaker culture linked to P312 and steppe genes forms. Did a meeting of the mature/late stages of 2 cultures there at that time create the classic bell beaker culture. Or perhaps in south Poland where the CW has some beaker like aspects which does not appear true for Czech CW

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Thus far the oldest R1b-L11 has been found in two ancient cultures of the 3rd millennium BC: Kurgan Bell Beaker and Proto-Nagyrev. (I use the appellation Kurgan Bell Beaker to distinguish it, the Bell Beaker with R1b-M269 and steppe dna, from the early Iberian Bell Beaker of the collective Neolithic tombs that was mostly I2a and had no steppe dna.)

    Archaeologist Marija Gimbutas attributed Kurgan Bell Beaker to the amalgam of Yamnaya and Vucedol in the Carpathian basin. Proto-Nagyrev represents the transition period between late Vucedol and early Nagyrev.

    So, where did R1b-L11 come from?
    My thoughts from another thread on the Balanovo Culture possibly being the source for L11 and/or his immediate ancestors.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....590#post365590

    For the following reasons, I wouldn't be surprised if L11 (or immediate ancestors) was hiding out north of the Caspian Sea, West of the Urals e.g. Balanovo Culture, before rapidly heading west.

    1. We have L23+ at Lopatino I, Sok River, Samara, Russia, 3300-2700 BC

    2. ~250 miles north of Lopantino I site, we have the Udmurt people with the highest percentage of red hair variants in a non Celtic-Germanic European population.

    3. Udmurtia is located in the same area as the Corded Ware related Balanovo Culture

    4. We also have three U152 samples from different subclades (L2, Z36, Z56) in this area. They could be relatively recent arrivals, but these subclades appeared between around 3000 and 2500 BC.

    5. When Davidski ran his analysis on RISE563 (oldest P312/U152) sample; it came out closest to the Kargopol people who are located within the old Balanova Cultural area.

    Balanova Culture in Pink. Udmurtia (red hair folks) in Red.
    Fatyanovo–Balanovo culture, 3200 BC–2300 BC, is an eastern extension of the Corded Ware culture into Russia...It is really two cultures, the Fatyanovo in the west, the Balanovo in the east...The Balanovo culture occupied the region of the Kama–Vyatka–Vetluga interfluves where metal resources (local copper sandstone deposits) of the region were exploited...Balanovo burials (like the Middle Dnieper culture[6]) were both of the flat and kurgan type, containing individual and also mass graves...The Balanovo also used draught cattle and two wheeled wagons...Copper ornaments and tools have been found in Balanovo burials. Burial goods depended on sex, age, and social position. Copper axes primarily accompanied persons of high social position, stone axe-hammers were given to men, flint axes to children and women. Amulets are frequently found in the graves as well as metal working implements.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 03-18-2018 at 05:41 AM.
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    I have previously posted about other possibilities too https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post358746

    The Budzhak culture
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post245590
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post266451

    The Mikhailovka I and Kemi Oba Cultures https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post267687

    Maybe it's all the above...e.g. a group from the Balanovo Culture swung southwest, above the Black Sea into the above cultural regions before entering central Europe.
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    I think the autosomal dna evidence is 99% clear that in at least the last couple of centuries prior to the c2500BC appearance of the P312 beaker culture the ancestors of the latter had lived north of the Carpathians as they totally lack the admixture of a more southerly route. Even modern distribution seems to reflect that L11 only reached the Danube by passing through the Moravian gate and largely left the downstream part of the Danube to Z2103. The Csepel Island beaker site is really a trade outpost of the Moravian group.

    The only way L11 could have that autosomal signature and come west using the Danube would be a lightening move along it without any mixing then through the Carpathians passes to the north. I doubt that because the other Yamnaya groups who moved by Danube route seem to have heavily intermarried local women there and indeed certainly in beaker times marrying out was a beaker trait. It’s much more likely they went west north of the Carpathians and did their admixing there.

    The only question I think that remains is timing and cultural identity. I wouldn’t rule out L11 being a late thrust west from the forest steppe zone. The beaker preference for north-south orientation is similar to eastern CW groups in the middle Dnieper, and the nw Ukraine/south Poland border area and Fatyanovo thrust north rather than the classic CW east-west with face to south orientation (who seem to be R1a men). Then again the wiki entry for CW says this ‘Burial occurred in flat graves or below small tumuli in a flexed position; on the continent males lay on their right side, females on the left, with the faces of both oriented to the south. However, in Sweden and also parts of northern Poland the graves were oriented north-south, men lay on their left side and women on the right side - both facing east’. That is basically the beaker burial right!
    Last edited by alan; 03-18-2018 at 12:37 PM.

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    I don't think Gimbutas' idea is that Bell Beaker came from Vucedol. Her idea is that Bell Beaker came from the melding of Vucedol and Yamnaya.

    I am less than confident in autosomal comparisons, since we have only two ancient Vucedol samples to work with, no western Yamnaya (with the exception of one Bulgarian I2a), and only one Baden sample. The current idea that the Neolithic farmer component in Bell Beaker has a best fit in Globular Amphora and TRB might mean Bell Beaker arose out of a steppe population that went around the north side of the Carpathians, or it might mean something else, like that is the best fit we have right now, given the limited number of samples we have to compare with Bell Beaker. The surest thing we get out of it is that Kurgan Bell Beaker is not Iberian.

    In the meantime, in terms of y-dna, we have plenty of R1b-L11 in Kurgan Bell Beaker, so much so that Kurgan Bell Beaker appears to be a done deal. Okay, so now we're wondering how Bell Beaker came to be.

    So, where else does R1b-L11 show up in the 3rd millennium BC? Thus far, only in Proto-Nagyrev on Csepel Island in Budapest, Hungary, circa 2500-2200 BC. Not a smoking gun, but not nothing, since Proto-Nagyrev represents the transition period from late Vucedol to early Nagyrev.

    We don't have anything similar with Corded Ware. On the contrary, it seems almost as solidly R1a as Bell Beaker is solidly R1b-M269.

    Elsewhere in Hungary, a few miles north of Csepel Island, in the cemetery at Budapest-Békásmegyer, Királyok útja, pottery from the Somogyvár–Vinkovci/proto-Nagyrév cultures was more frequent in inhumation burials than Bell Beaker beakers. The one male from that site with y-dna results, I2365 (2465-2205 BC), an R1b-L2, was buried with a bell beaker, an urn, and a Somogyvár–Vinkovci/proto-Nagyrév jug. This is from pages 131-132 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Information:

    The inhumation burials of the Békásmegyer cemetery contained jugs of the southern type rather than the Bell Beakers type. No more than four of the 30 inhumation graves yielded genuine Bell Beakers, while five contained various elements of the Beaker package such as stone wrist-guards, stone arrow-heads and bone buttons with V-shaped perforation. Jugs of the southern, Somogyvár–Vinkovci/proto-Nagyrév type were deposited in 15 inhumation burials; nine inhumation graves did not contain any grave goods. Eighteen of the 28 scattered cremation burials contained genuine Bell Beakers, while three yielded locally made copies or bowls with a stamped rim.
     


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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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    "Nagyrev" jugs, may not be aptly named. This is likely why Piguet & Besse (2009) refers to them as Type 34/35 handled pitchers after finding older samples in Makó-Kosihy-Čaka. In Peska & Kralik 's very thorough study on handled pitchers, their age seems to infer a north to south movement. Its presence in Moravian Corded Ware seems to be older than in the Carpathian Basin. See part of the conclusion below. These labels are used earlier in the paper

    MCWC = Moravian Corded Ware
    CWC = Corded Ware Culture
    MKC = Makó/Kosihy-Čaka Culture
    BBC =Bell Beaker Culture
    SOV = Somogyvár-Vinkovci Culture
    NgC = Nagyrév Culture

    “Nagyrév Jugs” and Their Archaeological Context
    JAROSLAV PEŠKA – MIROSLAV KRÁLÍK (2013)

    Comparing Moravia and Carpathian Basin, SOV and MKC have a tendency to be relatively younger than MCWC. At the same time, both SOV and MKC have on average, slightly younger absolute dates in our database than the MCWC, but we are aware of the limited number of absolute dates from the Carpathian Basin. Provided that in the combined seriations (i.e. Moravia and the Carpathian Basin), the Carpathian Basin objects are placed at the end of the CWC group sequence (in seriations with a comparable number of cases from each of the two regions), the differences in the distributions of Nagyrév jugs (in Moravia and the Carpathian Basin) are real, and the detected tendencies (middle values of MKC and SOV absolute dates in the Carpathian Basin are roughly equivalent to those in the Moravian BBC), a possible interpretation is as follows: The MCWC developed in Moravia, where it was strongly influenced by the incoming BBC. It was either pushed out into the Carpathian Basin, or it ceased to exist and the SOV and MKC concurrently developed in the Carpathian Basin. The NgC appears in this territory at the same time. The origin of the NgC is closely associated with the origin of the PÚC and its reoccupation of Moravia. The Únětice culture then immediately follows (no absolute dates were included in this study). Relatively sharp boundaries between the three Late Eneolithic cultures in Moravia create the impression of a discontinuity in the local development. The association between MCWC and PÚC should be sought in the Carpathian Basin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    a possible interpretation is as follows: The MCWC developed in Moravia, where it was strongly influenced by the incoming BBC.
    Do they still think BBC is incoming from the southwest? Or to put that another way, is there any association of genetics (especially YDNA) with their refinement of the ceramic series?

    Just noticed it's a 2009 paper, so, I assume not.

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    The archaeologists on the Olalde et al team designated the jugs found at Békásmegyer as Somogyvár–Vinkovci/proto-Nagyrév, whatever the ultimate origin of the style, and that is not Nagyrev, which would be later. It's the transition from late Vucedol (i.e., in this case, Somogyvár–Vinkovci) to early Nagyrev.

    The cemetery at Brandýsek in Bohemia yielded three Corded Ware skeletons that produced y-dna results:

    I7272/Grave 23: 2900–2500 BC, y-dna I2a2a2

    I7279/Grave 74: 2900–2500 BC, y-dna R1a1

    I7280/Grave 78: 2900–2500 BC, y-dna R1a1a

    That's only three samples from Czech Corded Ware, but thus far we don't have any R1b-L11 from any kind of Corded Ware.

    Note: I thought at first that Brandýsek was in Moravia, but evidently there is more than one Brandýsek, or I misunderstood a reference to it. Anyway, it's in Bohemia in the Czech Republic. Guess we still need some Moravian Corded Ware, although I have my doubts it will be anything other than R1a.
    Last edited by rms2; 03-18-2018 at 02:57 PM.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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    Notice how patriarchal and patrilocal these steppe-derived, early Indo-European cultures were? They are very nearly monolithic on the y-dna side. All the diversity seems to have come in their choice of females, i.e., on the mtDNA side of things.

    I think that is surprising to us moderns, who are so used to the mixing and mingling of peoples.

    But that is what makes finding R1b-L11 in a second, contemporary, 3rd millennium culture potentially so significant.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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