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Thread: R1b-L11: Where from?

  1. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    rozenfeld's already posted about this in the Genetic Genealogy and Ancient DNA in the News thread

    Iron Age study targets British DNA mystery

    presumably these samples are a significant part of the unreported aDNA set ?

    I'm guessing the 1400 current aDNA samples David Reich mentions are those that are published, otherwise it doesn't tally with the nos. in his book.

    Probably going to have to wait ages for this paper but it's going to be very interesting to see the difference in haplogroup frequency compared with today.
    We will be in for a very long wait for this paper.

    There are a few key UK based 'leading lights' pulling together new samples for this - but it is still early days yet. So yes, Reich has some UK samples already - but my understanding is that the bulk will be new samples still to be sourced. Bronze Age and Iron Age is the reputed focus but I am sure the Roman and post Roman period will also be featured.
    Some of the post Roman samples from my Worth Matravers site have been passed on to the Reich lab (from a UK aDNA lab) for the project. Unfortunately my samples are very poor preservation so I still do not know if aDNA extraction will be successful.

    So - it is certainly a VERY exciting project. But we may need years of patience before a paper emerges.

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  3. #292
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    Prehistoric pop culture: deciphering the DNA of the Bell Beaker Complex

    Overall, I think that is an excellent article, but I wonder about the following excerpt from it:

    . . . the Beaker Complex spread between Iberia and central Europe through the movement of ideas . . .
    I pulled that out of the context of the complete sentence it was in, but that's the part I want to address. How sure are we "the Beaker Complex spread between Iberia and central Europe through the movement of ideas"?

    Are we even sure the beakers themselves originated in Iberia? And what about the rest of "the Beaker Complex"? How much of it was present in early Iberian Bell Beaker?

    We know single burial in a pit under a round burial mound wasn't. That originated in the East.

    What about archer's wristguards? Isn't that something else that came from the East?

    What about burial with weapons, horse bones, etc.? Early Iberian Bell Beaker buried its dead in collective Neolithic tombs. Honestly, other than some sherds of beaker pottery, where in that practice is the rest of the Bell Beaker Complex?

    I know this sounds like an argument, but I don't mean it to sound that way. I would honestly like someone to tell me what it is about Bell Beaker exactly that we can say for sure spread from Iberia to Central Europe.
    Last edited by rms2; 04-15-2018 at 03:03 PM.
     


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  5. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Prehistoric pop culture: deciphering the DNA of the Bell Beaker Complex

    Overall, I think that is an excellent article, but I wonder about the following excerpt from it:



    I pulled that out of the context of the complete sentence it was in, but that's the part I want to address. How sure are we "the Beaker Complex spread between Iberia and central Europe through the movement of ideas"?

    Are we even sure the beakers themselves originated in Iberia? And what about the rest of "the Beaker Complex"? How much of it was present in early Iberian Bell Beaker?

    We know single burial in a pit under a round burial mound wasn't. That originated in the East.

    What about archer's wristguards? Isn't that something else that came from the East?

    What about burial with weapons, horse bones, etc.? Early Iberian Bell Beaker buried its dead in collective Neolithic tombs. Honestly, other than some sherds of beaker pottery, where in that practice is the rest of the Bell Beaker Complex?

    I know this sounds like an argument, but I don't mean it to sound that way. I would honestly like someone to tell me what it is about Bell Beaker exactly that we can say for sure spread from Iberia to Central Europe.
    The Portuguese Proto-Bell Beaker Package as per H&H includes:

    "... Maritime Beaker, copper knives and awls,
    advanced archery skills and reliance on the bow
    and arrow, a knowledge of decorated textiles
    (discussed in Harrison 1977, 45–47), and perhaps
    also V perforated buttons of the tortuga type."


    Missing are the following:

    "... boars’ tusk pendants shaped like bows, the
    stone wrist-guard (always a rare item in Portugal),
    and the type of tanged dagger that becomes
    identified with Beaker grave groups later on. Therefore, it is useful to
    speak of a ‘proto-Package’, in which core elements are
    linked together in Portugal from the earliest moment,
    and to which, at a later date, are added the wrist-guard,
    tanged dagger, Palmela points, and spiral gold ornaments."


    Interestingly, the use of cord to decorate pottery in early Iberian Bell Beaker is only seen in the north and the east and is missing in Portugual. Also this:

    "In contrast to the maritime Beakers, the corded ones
    (i.e., the AOO, AOC and CZM styles) are almost all
    single vessels; rare and special finds, like the battle
    axes. This strongly suggests that the earliest Beaker
    ideology developed in embryo form in Portugal, but it
    was enriched as it was transmitted to new areas."
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Bell Beaker East Group Warrior circa 2500 BC. (after Heyd 2000; drawing B. Richter)

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  7. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Missing are the following:

    "... boars’ tusk pendants shaped like bows, the
    stone wrist-guard (always a rare item in Portugal),
    and the type of tanged dagger that becomes
    identified with Beaker grave groups later on. Therefore, it is useful to
    speak of a ‘proto-Package’, in which core elements are
    linked together in Portugal from the earliest moment,
    and to which, at a later date, are added the wrist-guard,
    tanged dagger, Palmela points, and spiral gold ornaments."
    Interesting, Alan mentioning an idea the other day that stone wrist guards could have been knife fighting paraphernalia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    We will be in for a very long wait for this paper.

    There are a few key UK based 'leading lights' pulling together new samples for this - but it is still early days yet. So yes, Reich has some UK samples already - but my understanding is that the bulk will be new samples still to be sourced. Bronze Age and Iron Age is the reputed focus but I am sure the Roman and post Roman period will also be featured.
    Some of the post Roman samples from my Worth Matravers site have been passed on to the Reich lab (from a UK aDNA lab) for the project. Unfortunately my samples are very poor preservation so I still do not know if aDNA extraction will be successful.

    So - it is certainly a VERY exciting project. But we may need years of patience before a paper emerges.
    Something to look forward to in my dotage then : )

    Shame your samples may not pass muster, fingers crossed !!

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  10. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    Marvelous, just hoping there are copies still on the shelves : )
    Here in Virginia, USA, the May issue hasn't arrived (at my neighborhood B&N bookstore). A manager checked the stock room, and said he'll call me when it's up.

    The April issue (which they do have) has some very interesting British stuff too, but I specifically wanted the pictures associated with the new article citing Olalde et al, 2018.

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  12. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    The Portuguese Proto-Bell Beaker Package as per H&H includes:

    "... Maritime Beaker, copper knives and awls,
    advanced archery skills and reliance on the bow
    and arrow, a knowledge of decorated textiles
    (discussed in Harrison 1977, 45–47), and perhaps
    also V perforated buttons of the tortuga type."
    Thanks. I wonder how sure we are of the dates of all those items.

    Eventually, we find the entire Beaker package in Iberia courtesy of Kurgan Bell Beaker. I just wonder how much of it is of a piece with the very early earliest Iberian BB dates. All of the things you listed?

    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Missing are the following:

    "... boars’ tusk pendants shaped like bows, the
    stone wrist-guard (always a rare item in Portugal),
    and the type of tanged dagger that becomes
    identified with Beaker grave groups later on. Therefore, it is useful to
    speak of a ‘proto-Package’, in which core elements are
    linked together in Portugal from the earliest moment,
    and to which, at a later date, are added the wrist-guard,
    tanged dagger, Palmela points, and spiral gold ornaments."


    Interestingly, the use of cord to decorate pottery in early Iberian Bell Beaker is only seen in the north and the east and is missing in Portugual. Also this:

    "In contrast to the maritime Beakers, the corded ones
    (i.e., the AOO, AOC and CZM styles) are almost all
    single vessels; rare and special finds, like the battle
    axes. This strongly suggests that the earliest Beaker
    ideology developed in embryo form in Portugal, but it
    was enriched as it was transmitted to new areas."
    Also missing were single graves in pits under round burial mounds, robust skeletons, some of which were brachycephalic, and, of course, R1b-M269.

    I also wonder what kind of "ideology" is reflected in the few early Portuguese BB items you listed: "Maritime Beaker, copper knives and awls,advanced archery skills and reliance on the bow and arrow, a knowledge of decorated textiles(discussed in Harrison 1977, 45–47), and perhaps also V perforated buttons of the tortuga type."

    It seems to me the single grave burial rite, with all its accouterments, is more reflective of a belief system.
     


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  14. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    We will be in for a very long wait for this paper.

    There are a few key UK based 'leading lights' pulling together new samples for this - but it is still early days yet. So yes, Reich has some UK samples already - but my understanding is that the bulk will be new samples still to be sourced. Bronze Age and Iron Age is the reputed focus but I am sure the Roman and post Roman period will also be featured.
    Some of the post Roman samples from my Worth Matravers site have been passed on to the Reich lab (from a UK aDNA lab) for the project. Unfortunately my samples are very poor preservation so I still do not know if aDNA extraction will be successful.

    So - it is certainly a VERY exciting project. But we may need years of patience before a paper emerges.
    Sounds to me like Reich et al have a lot of irons (and coppers and bronzes) in the fire. I wish they would focus on the prequel to the Bell Beaker story and look into how Kurgan Bell Beaker came to be.
     


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    So, what do we know about Kurgan Bell Beaker basically (meaning, without going into minute detail)? Well, it did not come out of Iberia. We know that. It had a lot of steppe dna and in many ways resembled Yamnaya.

    Some (few) folks think the R1b-M269 element in it had its source in WHG-turned-Neolithic-farmers, possibly from Latvia, who married Corded Ware women, who, contrary to what usually happens with women who marry outside their culture, converted their husbands to patriarchy, horse-borne pastoralism and single grave burial rites (but distinct from Corded Ware rites).

    Personally, I think Kurgan Bell Beaker was just an updated version of Yamnaya, a kind of Yamnaya 2.0 adapted for central and western Europe.
     


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    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  17. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Sounds to me like Reich et al have a lot of irons (and coppers and bronzes) in the fire. I wish they would focus on the prequel to the Bell Beaker story and look into how Kurgan Bell Beaker came to be.
    And as if by magic : )

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/0...52589638126969

    55 Ancient Eurasian Steppe selected Y haplogroups

    Of course without the paper the results are of limited value, don't think I can remember BAM file coming out ahead of a paper before ?

    A population genomic history of the Eurasian steppe

    BTW for some odd reason the last link only seems to work with Firefox
    Last edited by jdean; 04-16-2018 at 04:14 PM.

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