Page 1 of 18 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 179

Thread: L238 (P312>L238) a "Norse" marker

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,426
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    L238 (P312>L238) a "Norse" marker

    L238 was discovered a couple of years ago. I believe Goldenhind had a hand in that and I'll try to get him over here to post. L238 is P312+ U152- L21- DF27- so it a little brother of a sort.

    I noticed he posted on another forum that a new kind of L238+ variety may hav been identified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenhind
    I have been following L-238 since it was first identified. A rather surprising result has just come in. L-238 is so closely connected to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] variety, that previously it has been possible to predict L-238 results by a quick glance at the STR markers. However the most recent L-238+ result completely breaks the mold. He has the modal 11,14 at 385a/b instead of the characteristic Norse variety 11,13, though I believe there is at least one other L-238 who also has that. What was really surprising is that he has 13 at 439, which is on the other side of the modal (12) from the characteristic 11 of L-238. Though he hasn't tested for any of the other distinguishing L-238 markers, this is so surprising one almost has to wonder about a lab error. If accurate, it will no longer be possible to predict negative L-238 results based on those two markers alone.

    This is also the first L238 result from Germany, though the location there (Mecklenberg in northern Germany) is close to Scandinavia.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 09-26-2013 at 04:20 AM.

  2. #2
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,344
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Ethnicity
    British-Scandinavian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF99
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a

    England Denmark Wales Scotland Sweden
    I begin with a recent surprising L238 result. I mentioned this on another forum, but there is now more data, and I thought it worth posting here.

    First a bit of background. From the time of its discovery, it appeared that the L238 subclade was equivalent to Ken Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] variety. He reported that this variety, which he said is found throughout Scandinavia though especially common in Norway, is distinguished by the following off modals:

    385 = 11,13 (modal 11,14)
    439 = 11 (modal 12)
    441 = 14 (modal 13)
    446 = 15 (modal 13)

    Note: 441 is a standard marker at SMGF, where Ken did much of his data mining, but is only included at FTDNA with 111 markers or by special order.

    The first people who tested L238+ matched the above profile exactly, though most did not have results for 441. Because the first two off modals in the signature appear in the first 12 FTDNA markers, it was pretty easy to identify likely L238 candidates. Rich S., who was managing the P312 and subclades project at the time, recruited a number of people from various Scandinavian projects who matched this profile at 385 and 439 to test for L238, and I believe every single one of them was positive.

    Though further testing gave some L238+ results from some who didn't match all of the above off modals, and there were some who only matched one or two of them who got L238- negative results, it appeared certain that it was generally possible to identify L238 individuals from their STR profile alone.

    However recently all this was turned upside down when Swan, who was in the P312** category because he had tested negative for all other P312 subclades and was presumed to be L238- from his STR profile, decided to test for L238 and got positive results. He only had 37 markers, which only gave him 385 and 439 for comparison, but he has the modal values at 385 and with 13 at 439, he is on the other side of the modal from the R1b-Nor profile there. This was so surprising, there was some speculation at first of a possible lab error. However he then ordered Z2245 and Z2247, SNPs known to be associated with L238, and got positive results for both. One lab error might be possible, but three seems virtually impossible.

    He has since specially ordered 446 and 441 to see how he matches Nordtvedt's profile at the other two markers. He matches the Norse profile at 441 = 14, and with 446 = 14 he is at least on the same side of the modal as the Norse group.

    Though very few have tested for it, 441 = 14 is the only off modal found in every L238+ to date. It may be significant that this marker is the slowest mutator of the four markers which distinguish this variety.

    I am not ready to abandon the identification of L238 and the R1b-Nor variety. I still believe that those who have all or most of the above off modals are more likely to be L238+ than not. However one needs to be careful in predicting L238- status based on STR results alone, especially when they are only available for 385 and 439.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; 07-21-2013 at 08:20 PM.

  3. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to GoldenHind For This Useful Post:

     Bugsy (03-29-2015),  rms2 (07-22-2013),  Svan (07-22-2013),  TigerMW (07-22-2013)

  4. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    13
    Sex
    Location
    Nashville, Tennessee
    Ethnicity
    E pluribus unum
    Nationality
    Born in the U.S.A.
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b P312 L238+ BY781
    mtDNA (M)
    A

    United States of America European Union Germany Denmark Sweden Norway

    Surprising L238+ results

    I am not qualified to comment on the science of DNA, but I do have almost 60 years experience studying world history, and over 40 years experience in family history. When I learned that I am the outlier 238+ mentioned by GoldenHind above and in another forum back in April, I was just happy to get out of the big pond of P312 into a smaller pond.

    I had already traced my paternal line to Mecklenburg in northern Germany in the year 1235, which until the year 1160 had been populated with Slavic tribes, probably mostly R1a. I assumed that the family had arrived from the west, from the Saxon or Frankish Germanic peoples, probably from today's Netherlands, since the history speaks a lot about the great numbers of Flemish people moving into the area. With the L238+ revelation, I began to look north.

    Most of the other L238+ group seemed to have Norwegian roots or roots in Sweden near areas where Norse people would have traveled to trade. German historians had written that my paternal line had connections with Denmark, which I previously discounted since there was nothing in the German literature or in anyone's family tree that showed this. I then found a transliteration of the earliest record, from 1250, with the family name before Germany, which said it was Svan. Still working in the German literature, I found a connection to Danish Schleswig, but it was only when I got into the Danish literature that I found the family recorded in Danish North Jutland and Halland (in Scania, now part of Sweden).

    I am now fairly convinced that this is the same family, but I would be more convinced if some more Danes came forward for DNA testing. Is the off modal L238 result evidence of a Danish mutation that migrated out of the Norse tribal area at an earlier time? I will leave that up to you people who are much more qualified than I am.

    Mark Swan
    Last edited by Svan; 07-22-2013 at 06:19 PM.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Svan For This Useful Post:

     rms2 (07-22-2013)

  6. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,426
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    I begin with a recent surprising L238 result. I mentioned this on another forum, but there is now more data, and I thought it worth posting here
    ....
    However recently all this was turned upside down when Swan, who was in the P312** category because he had tested negative for all other P312 subclades and was presumed to be L238- from his STR profile, decided to test for L238 and got positive results.
    ...
    I assume we have him classified in the right place now, right?

    I'm smiling, but I love it when this happens. SNP testing is truth telling. We have SNP predictors, I've got my STR signature analysis, etc., etc., etc. However, the SNPs can confound us, but they are right* while we are working with the vagaries of STRs and anomalies and convergence on branches of the tree.

    * assuming labs are making errors, etc.

  7. #5
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,344
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Ethnicity
    British-Scandinavian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF99
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a

    England Denmark Wales Scotland Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I assume we have him classified in the right place now, right?
    Correct. He is now on the L238 list.

  8. #6
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,344
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Ethnicity
    British-Scandinavian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF99
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a

    England Denmark Wales Scotland Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by Svan View Post

    I am now fairly convinced that this is the same family, but I would be more convinced if some more Danes came forward for DNA testing. Is the off modal L238 result evidence of a Danish mutation that migrated out of the Norse tribal area at an earlier time? I will leave that up to you people who are much more qualified than I am.

    Mark Swan
    I wish we knew the answer to that. Nordtvedt has said that Denmark has a fair share of his R1b-Nor variety, but aside from you, there is no one I know of Danish ancestry who has tested L238+. There is one Dane in the P312 project who is a very good match to the L238 STR profile, but he never responded to emails from both Henry or myself urging him to test for it. Oddly enough, he lists his EKA as coming from Spain

  9. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,426
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    L238 (P312>L238) a "Norse" marker

    I started this thread up because L238 is scattered in a couple of different places.

  10. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    14
    Sex

    they all seem to be Scandinavian or places where(ancient) Scandinavians went

  11. #9
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,344
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Ethnicity
    British-Scandinavian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF99
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a

    England Denmark Wales Scotland Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I started this thread up because L238 is scattered in a couple of different places.
    Perhaps more surprising to me is where it hasn't been found, ie anywhere outside of Scandinavia and Britain. For instance, none was found in a sample of 500 in the Netherlands. It is generally thought that the Netherlands was populated by Germanic tribes moving south out of Scandinavia in the collapse of the Roman Empire. If L238 was in existence during the migration period, one would also expect to find at least a smattering in all the places the various Germanic tribes which probably began their journey in Scandinavia went to, such as Vandals in Spain and Visigoths and Lombards in Italy. We should also expect to find some in Russia from the Swedish Rus.

    I can think of various possible explanations:
    1) L238 dates to sometime after 500 AD.
    2) L238 was confined somewhere in Norway during the Migartion Period and did not spread to Sweden and Denmark in any significant numbers until much later.
    3) The number of L238 in places such as Spain and Italy is so small it requires more extensive sampling to find it.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; 11-01-2013 at 07:26 PM.

  12. #10
    Junior Member
    Posts
    5
    Sex
    Location
    The westcoast of Sweden
    Ethnicity
    Swedish
    Nationality
    Sweden
    Y-DNA (P)
    L238+

    I belong to the L238 group and live in Halland, Sweden. The connection to Denmark as Svan states is intriguing. The name form of Svan without e as ending or w instead of v could point at Sweden as origin. I´m not a linguist but I know the spelling today and have read the SAOB about the ethymology. The area my great great grandfather came from is Skällinge in Halland. When he moved out from the area it was still pretty remote and off road. I have done a lot of geneological research there and know some others who have done the same. The picture of the area and surrounding parishes is good.

    There have been a lot of wars during past ages between Denmark and Sweden, often with Germans on the danish side. A couple of the biggest clashes stood not far away from Skällinge. It would be wonderful if somehow we could clear out from where the types of L238 comes.

    Another medieval connection is the cloisters set up in Åskloster by danish brethrens. That cloister did not lie far from Skällinge. That was during a couple of hundred years an industrial site for iron working. I guess other danes followed for the work. I see a possible connection between the nordic areas and Italy and Spain though the cloisters of the Cistercians as possible.

    If we look at the Norway connection, we have had a row of kings ruling both Norway and Sweden. A couple had one of their main castles in Varberg in Halland. We know of a couple of areas with norwegian influences that can be heard in dialects of Swedish. One of them lies here at the west coast.

    Our modern boundaries is modern. We have to take them away painting the picture of past times. From long before viking age untill renaissance Norway, Denmark and Sweden was one big union. The flow of genes must have reached all over.

    One big question: Should I take the 111 test at ftDNA? I am 385 = 11,13 and 439 = 11.
    Last edited by Gizbar; 11-21-2013 at 10:36 PM.

Page 1 of 18 12311 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 220
    Last Post: 05-20-2020, 07:57 PM
  2. R1b P312 L238
    By Titus Valerius in forum R1b-P312
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-09-2020, 03:53 PM
  3. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-12-2016, 12:59 AM
  4. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-31-2014, 04:02 PM
  5. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-25-2014, 04:02 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •