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Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

  1. #271
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    Some posts in this thread have touched upon the reason there are so few findings of ancient I1 in Scandinavia, the area where I1 now dominates, with more than 50 percent of males carrying the haplogroup in some parts of Sweden. The soil in Fennoscandia might be a reason. If you were a stone age man and didn’t want geneticians to fiddle with your dna a few thousand years after your death, Sweden would have been a good place to get buried in. Look at the following map:

    https://images.app.goo.gl/P6iG2CSqVoX92bJEA

    The blue patches are areas with sedimentary bedrock. The soil in these areas are calcareous and thus preserves bones well. The rest has acid soil which eat bones. Consequently, most (all?) ancient humans with readable dna have been found in these areas. Gotland: Stora Förvar, Ajvide, Stora Bjärs, Ire. Patch west of lake Vättern: Gökhem. Patch east of lake Vättern: Motala. Patch in southmost province of Scania: Abbekås, Ängamöllan, and others.

    Moreover, these parts belong to the most fertile in Sweden. So they have continually been inhabitated and cultivated and many graves must have been plowed away.

    The rest of the country was obviously packed with now dissolved I1 individuals, since the ice age. Or not.

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  3. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by janan View Post
    Some posts in this thread have touched upon the reason there are so few findings of ancient I1 in Scandinavia, the area where I1 now dominates, with more than 50 percent of males carrying the haplogroup in some parts of Sweden. The soil in Fennoscandia might be a reason. If you were a stone age man and didn’t want geneticians to fiddle with your dna a few thousand years after your death, Sweden would have been a good place to get buried in. Look at the following map:

    https://images.app.goo.gl/P6iG2CSqVoX92bJEA

    The blue patches are areas with sedimentary bedrock. The soil in these areas are calcareous and thus preserves bones well. The rest has acid soil which eat bones. Consequently, most (all?) ancient humans with readable dna have been found in these areas. Gotland: Stora Förvar, Ajvide, Stora Bjärs, Ire. Patch west of lake Vättern: Gökhem. Patch east of lake Vättern: Motala. Patch in southmost province of Scania: Abbekås, Ängamöllan, and others.

    Moreover, these parts belong to the most fertile in Sweden. So they have continually been inhabitated and cultivated and many graves must have been plowed away.

    The rest of the country was obviously packed with now dissolved I1 individuals, since the ice age. Or not.
    Very informative, thanks. Does anyone have a map of Iron Age inhumation burials in Scandinavia? It would be good to know what is potentially available. The only map I can immediately find is excusively of richly furnished burials, in one of Malcolm Todd's books. The biggest concentration of those is in the blue zone of Denmark, in Fyn. One hurdle for any site might be an understandable reluctance to excavate. For example, the burials at Borre in Norway start in the Migration Period but I remember reading in the museum there that they want to leave things undisturbed for more technologically advanced generations.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R-L21 L371

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  5. #273
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    I'd be interested in seeing these sorts of maps, though I'm not sure where to look.

    Janan raises some good points, obviously pH levels of various soils are going to have some influence on the preservation of DNA and even skeletal remains. Another thing obviously is the practice of cremation, which seems to have been quite common in early Germanic areas.

    JonikW, you mention locations that have yet to be excavated do to the wish of not disturbing the site and waiting for better technology, this seems like a good idea in all honesty.

    I think the ancient I1 we have so far is fairly telling in regards to which groups of people brought it around the world, that was sort of obvious without ancient samples
    Last edited by spruithean; 04-29-2019 at 02:22 PM.
    Y-DNA: I-A14097(Scotland),
    Big Y: I-F2642>Y1966>Y3649>A13241>Y3647>A14097 (1,850 YBP)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2, R-L21 x2, I-M223, R-S1141, R-U198 & R-U106, mtHg J1c3
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

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  7. #274
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    Got curious about the potential for new DNA findings. I've asked around and although osteologists likely have a pretty good grip, there doesn't seem to be a compilation of inhumation finds with good potential for DNA analyses.

    The Swedish national heritage board has a web site which allows you to browse finds. I've made searches in the most interesting provinces of Sweden (the soil...) for reports about graves characterized as "fornminne" (~ "ancient heritage") or "undersökt och borttagen" (~ "examined and removed"), with the report including the word "skelett". This gives:

    Skåne: 120
    Östergötland: 24
    Västergötland: 48
    Gotland: 74
    Öland: 43

    Many reports cover several graves. On the other hand, some of them are not interesting - the bones are mostly decomposed, the skeleton is not human, the find is not ancient, etc. You would have to read each report to get closer to the right figure. But still, I believe there are quite a few skeletons with potential out there. It's more about time, resources, and refinement of techniques. But it's really frustrating just sitting and waiting for the results to come out

    Here's the link to the web site:
    http://www.fmis.raa.se/cocoon/fornsok
    Last edited by janan; 05-10-2019 at 12:59 PM.

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  9. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by janan View Post
    Got curious about the potential for new DNA findings. I've asked around and although osteologists likely have a pretty good grip, there doesn't seem to be a compilation of inhumation finds with good potential for DNA analyses.

    The Swedish national heritage board has a web site which allows you to browse finds. I've made searches in the most interesting provinces of Sweden (the soil...) for reports about graves characterized as "fornminne" (~ "ancient heritage") or "undersökt och borttagen" (~ "examined and removed"), with the report including the word "skelett". This gives:

    Skåne: 120
    Östergötland: 24
    Västergötland: 48
    Gotland: 74
    Öland: 43

    Many reports cover several graves. On the other hand, some of them are not interesting - the bones are mostly decomposed, the skeleton is not human, the find is not ancient, etc. You would have to read each report to get closer to the right figure. But still, I believe there are quite a few skeletons with potential out there. It's more about time, resources, and refinement of techniques. But it's really frustrating just sitting and waiting for the results to come out

    Here's the link to the web site:
    http://www.fmis.raa.se/cocoon/fornsok
    Nice work, and thanks janan. It's good we've now got some idea of what might be available for testing from Sweden, with all the usual caveats of course.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R-L21 L371

  10. #276
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    Here from another thread, looks like we have another ancient I1, this time out of Finland.

    Quote Originally Posted by teepean47 View Post
    I uploaded Huseby Klev sample ble008 to Gedmatch. Processing was done with two programs:

    BA7487306 pileupCaller
    BF1047725 extract23 with a modified SNP filter

    I noticed the sample had Y-DNA and MorleyDNA predicted it to be I1 I1-L759 (I1-CTS10140, I1-CTS10338) and yhaplo's result was I-CTS88 I-M170 I
    At most it seems to be I-M253 and no further SNPs.

    I can't find much on this yet, but from first glance, Huseby Klev is 10,000 years old.... it's more likely I-M170 then.
    Last edited by spruithean; 05-15-2019 at 10:14 PM.
    Y-DNA: I-A14097(Scotland),
    Big Y: I-F2642>Y1966>Y3649>A13241>Y3647>A14097 (1,850 YBP)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2, R-L21 x2, I-M223, R-S1141, R-U198 & R-U106, mtHg J1c3
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

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  12. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Here from another thread, looks like we have another ancient I1, this time out of Finland.



    At most it seems to be I-M253 and no further SNPs.

    I can't find much on this yet, but from first glance, Huseby Klev is 10,000 years old.... it's more likely I-M170 then.
    I looked at the paper - it's open access here https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-019-0399-1

    According to Table 1, Ble008 is listed as sex XX, not XY.

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  14. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    I looked at the paper - it's open access here https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-019-0399-1

    According to Table 1, Ble008 is listed as sex XX, not XY.
    Interesting. It may be an error or a mistake when the ID was posted in the other thread. Either way, I am not too confident it would even be I1 at 10,000 YBP.
    Y-DNA: I-A14097(Scotland),
    Big Y: I-F2642>Y1966>Y3649>A13241>Y3647>A14097 (1,850 YBP)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2, R-L21 x2, I-M223, R-S1141, R-U198 & R-U106, mtHg J1c3
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

  15. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Interesting. It may be an error or a mistake when the ID was posted in the other thread. Either way, I am not too confident it would even be I1 at 10,000 YBP.
    If it's just I1 with missing defining SNP's of modern I1 MRCA and doesn't belong to any modern clades it is possible. I1-I2 separated way back.

  16. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    If it's just I1 with missing defining SNP's of modern I1 MRCA and doesn't belong to any modern clades it is possible. I1-I2 separated way back.
    Perhaps pre-I1 or pre-pre-I1
    Y-DNA: I-A14097(Scotland),
    Big Y: I-F2642>Y1966>Y3649>A13241>Y3647>A14097 (1,850 YBP)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2, R-L21 x2, I-M223, R-S1141, R-U198 & R-U106, mtHg J1c3
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

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