Page 68 of 73 FirstFirst ... 18586667686970 ... LastLast
Results 671 to 680 of 730

Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

  1. #671
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,030
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Dinaric
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-Y7627
    mtDNA (M)
    H5c

    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Why don't we rename the pre I1 just I1 and M253 I1a and Df29 I1a1 to avoid the confusion?
    Would that make sense?

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to oz For This Useful Post:

     mwauthy (05-27-2020)

  3. #672
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,686
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    North Sea/Irish Sea
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1 Z140+ A21912+
    mtDNA (M)
    V
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b L21+ L371+
    mtDNA (P)
    J1c2l

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Good catch - hadn't caught that in the earlier lists of haplogroups. Went back and looked at some of the summaries in the Ancient DNA section on AG and several of the summaries included Iron Age, Bronze Age, Bell beaker and didn't include the Neolithic samples.

    Can't really assess if that Neolithic I1 is some intermediary pre-I1 extinct line just on Figure S 5.1. As we've seen from the various pre-I1 that we know about in published papers, there's considerable variance in how different authors call this (I1 vs. I) in summarized data. I'm happy to have a look at the BAM file if I know which one it is - the idea of hunting through 36 low coverage Neolithic samples blind, not so keen. In this regard, the mentioned Dataset S10, Dataset S11 may be useful in narrowing that down. I don't see those currently in the SI section - not sure if they will be added later or if they are only available to those who have purchased access to the journal.

    Any chance you could ask the scientist in charge of the sample BES1248 that you corresponded with earlier if she can clarify which sample is the Neolithic I1?
    So the two samples we have on the datasheet in addition to BES1248, using tables S1-1 and S5-1:

    Sample ID Cx161: y haplogroup (capture) I1a2b4~. I-FGC3466. Mt haplogroup H1.
    Middle Neolithic 2 (5340 +/ 30BP).
    ZAC Agora, Cugnaux, Haute-Garonne.

    Sample ID FAD9: y haplogroup (capture) I1a2a1a1a3a2b~. I-A11354. Mt haplogroup K1b1a1.
    Early Bronze Age (3490 +/- 30BP).
    Dolmen des Fades, Pépieux, Aude.

  4. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (05-28-2020),  deadly77 (05-27-2020),  Helgenes50 (05-27-2020),  JMcB (05-27-2020),  jstephan (05-27-2020),  Megalophias (05-27-2020),  Michał (05-27-2020),  mwauthy (05-27-2020),  oz (05-27-2020),  palamede (05-30-2020),  Riverman (05-30-2020)

  5. #673
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,686
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    North Sea/Irish Sea
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1 Z140+ A21912+
    mtDNA (M)
    V
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b L21+ L371+
    mtDNA (P)
    J1c2l

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    I see the ~5,300 ybp Neolithic sample's FGC3466 falls under S5619 (formed 4,600 ybp; TMRCA 3,800 ybp, YFull).
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,100 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (05-28-2020),  JMcB (05-27-2020),  mwauthy (05-27-2020)

  7. #674
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,030
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Dinaric
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-Y7627
    mtDNA (M)
    H5c

    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I see the ~5,300 ybp Neolithic sample's FGC3466 falls under S5619 (formed 4,600 ybp; TMRCA 3,800 ybp, YFull).
    Is that under Z58?
    So after all these years and hundreds if not thousands of ancient DNA samples across Europe we come to find out Z58 (and possibly other I1a's) might've originated in Neolithic France? That's truly amazing.
    And I guess the tmrca estimates aren't reliable.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to oz For This Useful Post:

     JonikW (05-27-2020),  mwauthy (05-27-2020)

  9. #675
    Registered Users
    Posts
    704

    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    So the two samples we have on the datasheet in addition to BES1248, using tables S1-1 and S5-1:

    Sample ID Cx161: y haplogroup (capture) I1a2b4~. I-FGC3466. Mt haplogroup H1.
    Middle Neolithic 2 (5340 +/ 30BP).
    ZAC Agora, Cugnaux, Haute-Garonne.

    Sample ID FAD9: y haplogroup (capture) I1a2a1a1a3a2b~. I-A11354. Mt haplogroup K1b1a1.
    Early Bronze Age (3490 +/- 30BP).
    Dolmen des Fades, Pépieux, Aude.

    Do you have access to the BAM files for those 2 samples deadly77? I’m curious what your thoughts are regarding the matter.
    I1 > DF29 > Z58 > Z59 > Z2041 > Z2040 >
    Z382 > S26361 > S16414 > FGC24354 > FGC24357 >
    FGC24356 > S10350 > FGC75802 > Y125947 >
    S21197 Netherlands >
    BY149414 Scotland >
    BY188003 Belgium >
    BY188570 Belgium

    YFull id: YF68407

  10. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to mwauthy For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (05-27-2020),  JonikW (05-27-2020),  Megalophias (05-27-2020)

  11. #676
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    732
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Ethnicity
    European
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-L338
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c1

    United Kingdom Northumberland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    Do you have access to the BAM files for those 2 samples deadly77? I’m curious what your thoughts are regarding the matter.
    I had a look at PRJEB38152 in European Nucleotide Archive here https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB38152 and I couldn't find either Cx161 or FAD9.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to deadly77 For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (05-27-2020),  JonikW (05-27-2020),  mwauthy (05-27-2020)

  13. #677
    Registered Users
    Posts
    704

    Quote Originally Posted by oz View Post
    Why don't we rename the pre I1 just I1 and M253 I1a and Df29 I1a1 to avoid the confusion?
    Would that make sense?

    Instead of “pre-I1” I would use I-I1.
    I1 > DF29 > Z58 > Z59 > Z2041 > Z2040 >
    Z382 > S26361 > S16414 > FGC24354 > FGC24357 >
    FGC24356 > S10350 > FGC75802 > Y125947 >
    S21197 Netherlands >
    BY149414 Scotland >
    BY188003 Belgium >
    BY188570 Belgium

    YFull id: YF68407

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to mwauthy For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (05-27-2020),  JonikW (05-27-2020),  rothaer (06-02-2020)

  15. #678
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,686
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    North Sea/Irish Sea
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1 Z140+ A21912+
    mtDNA (M)
    V
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b L21+ L371+
    mtDNA (P)
    J1c2l

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I see the ~5,300 ybp Neolithic sample's FGC3466 falls under S5619 (formed 4,600 ybp; TMRCA 3,800 ybp, YFull).
    If this Cugnaux guy really does turn out to be what they say, we'll all be pondering how he got so far south. He or his Y ancestor could have been anything from a lone traveller to an enslaved spoil of war passed over a long distance, or -- perhaps the most intriguing possibility -- part of a cultural group that had made its way south. This is interesting from a study called "Enclosing the Neolithic", edited by Alex Gibson, because it does point to potential links or influences between Cugnaux and cultures much nearer Scandinavia (where we might most expect to find Neolithic I1) in the forms of the LBK, Rössen and Michelsberg cultures.

    It says: "The Chassean enclosures of the south of France are [rare …] The most complete
    and recently published results come from the site of Villeneuve-Tolosane/Cugnaux (Gandelin 2011) [...] These southern enclosures appeared later than their counterparts in northern France which were constructed from the end of the Early Neolithic (Villeneuve-Saint-Germain/Middle Neolithic I transition) and are based on LBK models present in Germany and Belgium from the end of the 6th millennium. BC. These were developed in the Cerny Culture and the Chambon Group in the Paris Basin and in the Rössen culture further to the east and their
    morphology and sizes vary. It is during the Middle Neolithic II that enclosures become widespread among the northern
    Chassean cultures, the Michelsberg culture and the Noyen group [...] Several hypotheses have been proposed to explain the appearance of these sites in southern France [...] The first concerns security and protection (defense of a settlement, conflict between groups, protection of livestock etc) whilst the second is more symbolic or ritualistic (cultural, funerary, display etc)."

    I can also see a couple of studies involving isotopes and this site. The only one I can access, "Southern French Neolithic Populations: Isotopic Evidence for Regional Specificities in Environment and Diet", suggests some outlier burials, including in Cugnaux, of people who had moved around during their lifetimes. This range seems to be restricted to Garonne, Languedoc and Catalonia though and of course doesn't tell us where any of the Cugnaux ancestors would have originated.

    It concludes: "The presence of outlier individuals whose isotopic data are unique might reveal population mobility, as suggested by other authors in relation to archaeological evidence (flint supply, Vaquer, personal communication)."

    I look forward to further developments on this sample for sure.

    Edit: added bold for emphasis
    Last edited by JonikW; 05-27-2020 at 04:45 PM.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,100 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

  16. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (05-28-2020),  glentane (05-27-2020),  JMcB (05-27-2020),  mwauthy (05-27-2020)

  17. #679
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,030
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Dinaric
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-Y7627
    mtDNA (M)
    H5c

    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Who cares what someone decides to call these haplogroups, they're just some letters and numbers someone gave them, honestly I don't care what they call it. I just suggested a practical solution.

    Back to what JonikW shared, if these I1a2+ turn out to be legit, what does that mean for the Scandinavian I1a? Are they Neolithic France Jr. now? Lol...

    What does it mean for all the I1 all over Europe and elsewhere...do you question the Germanic expansion as the culprit?
    Doesn't really seem feasible, because in that case wouldn't they have found I1a samples before at least nearby France somewhere which predate the Germanic migrations? France isn't an island to suggest that I1a was isolated there forever and expanded from there in the late Neolithic or something. If you look at Neolithic hgs that have been found so far and if we compare it with I2 the closest relative, it's been found everywhere in all time periods in big numbers. G2 as well and a bunch of others.

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to oz For This Useful Post:

     JonikW (05-27-2020),  mwauthy (05-27-2020)

  19. #680
    Registered Users
    Posts
    704

    Based on modern distributions I don’t think this sample would negate a Scandinavian origin for I-DF29 but I do think it would make us have to reassess our current understanding of I-DF29 mutation rates and when various dispersals out of Scandinavia occurred for various patrilineal lines. I-Z138/I-Z139 does have a very strong Western European distribution and would be a logical great candidate for an early exit out of Scandinavia.
    I1 > DF29 > Z58 > Z59 > Z2041 > Z2040 >
    Z382 > S26361 > S16414 > FGC24354 > FGC24357 >
    FGC24356 > S10350 > FGC75802 > Y125947 >
    S21197 Netherlands >
    BY149414 Scotland >
    BY188003 Belgium >
    BY188570 Belgium

    YFull id: YF68407

  20. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to mwauthy For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (05-28-2020),  JonikW (05-27-2020),  Lupriac (06-06-2020)

Page 68 of 73 FirstFirst ... 18586667686970 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. List of ancient samples on GEDmatch
    By Tomenable in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 499
    Last Post: 07-05-2020, 05:57 PM
  2. Replies: 37
    Last Post: 05-07-2018, 12:05 AM
  3. My current list of U106+ samples in aDNA samples
    By Bollox79 in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-23-2018, 12:51 AM
  4. My list of ancient European y-dna samples
    By venustas in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-14-2017, 05:19 AM
  5. Replies: 18
    Last Post: 05-01-2015, 11:26 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •