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Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Just trying to catch up on all this here!

    Wow! This is rather big stuff for I1. I thought BES1248 would be from somewhere in the north of France. I'm quite surprised, especially given his Z58 grouping. I wonder what this might mean for I-Y7198 lineages.
    Actually it's not that big. Even if this oldest sample is correct it's still pretty much around the age estimate of the TMRCA for I1 or older by maybe 500 years. Who and what guarantees that their dating methods are totally accurate.
    And second, unless they find more I1 at least between the area of France and Scandinavia before the Bronze age then this study might've have just discovered nothing more than extinct lineages and these samples might also be contaminated.
    Let's see if this gets backed up by more I1 samples that might get discovered in future studies. Although I still find it pretty odd that there is virtually zero I1 anywhere else in Europe before around 5000 ybp.

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  3. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Not sure BAM files will be available for these ones, given the method of DNA analysis used, although that depends on the details. If it's a genotyped chip test - like a custom version of the arrays used by 23andme, Ancestry, etc. then I think it's unlikely that there will be a BAM file and we'll only get a BAM file for the 58 low coverage shotgun sequenced samples such as BES1248. If it's a SNP capture similar to what the researchers in the Avar burials used, we may get a BAM with a lot of holes in it. Or if the SNPs results came from a Sanger (similar to a YSEQ single SNP test) then perhaps that could be assembled into a BAM file. The latter two cases mean we're unlikely to get anything "new" from the data, but perhaps can confirm the calls rather than taking them on trust from a spreadsheet.

    If not a BAM file (in the case of a genotyped chip test) then hopefully we can look at some of the other calls and see if the final ones are phylogenetically consistent. My AncestryDNA test has positive SNPs for Z1842 (haplogroup J), CTS616 (haplogroup I2), M307/P203 (haplogroup O) but those single SNPs alone don't define me as any of those haplogroups. Can verify these are false positives by looking at upstream negatives - for example, I'm negative for L134/PF4539, M304, L60/S6, M267, Z2215, Z1828 in haplogroup J which contradict the positive resut for Z1842. So if we could get something similar for FAD9 or Cx161 then we can be a bit more confident.
    Let’s hope the latter is the case. What’s your intuition on these two samples? They seem to be too early to be true and I’m one who thinks the ancients traveled a lot more than we think. The Z140 appears to be a little too far down the tree for that time period. Any thoughts?
    Last edited by JMcB; 05-28-2020 at 02:21 PM.
    Paper Trail: 43.8% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  5. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    Let’s hope the latter is the case. What’s your intuition on these two samples? They seem to be too early to be true and I’m one who thinks the ancients traveled a lot more than we think. The Z140 appears to be a little too far down the tree for that time period. Any thoughts?
    My intuition is to pause and not get too excited about these two samples for now until we know more. There's a lot of information in the paper, supplementary information and datasets that have come together over the last few days in a piecemeal fashion and it's not well organized for easy reading. I'm a bit wary that these samples are listed in one datasheet but the Y-DNA data doesn't seem to be much discussed much elsewhere outside of that.

    It's reminding me a bit of the supposed I-L258 sample “Early Bronze Age (~2,000 BCE). Lech_EBA OBKR_117_d” from the Mittnik A., et al., Kinship-based social inequality in Bronze Age Europe paper that had quite a few people excited for a while but with concerns that the TMRCA didn't match up (posts above in the forum between #489 on Page 49 and#525 on Page 53 above) until Generalissimo shared (post #519 on page 52 above) that this sample was negative for five I1 level SNPs to go along with the positive result from L258 and also a positive result for I2a1a1a1a1a1a2a~ S294. Later found the L258 SNP result was a one read false positive from the BAM file (see post #556 on page 56).
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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  7. #704
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    ...and that's not to say that FAD9 isn't actually I-A11354 or Cx161 isn't actually I-FGC3466. Just that I'd like to assess more evidence for or against either situation than we currently have available.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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  9. #705
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    Well, it wouldn’t be the first time we’ve been on a wild goose chase. So your caution is advisable! I’m skeptical about these but perhaps, I’m wrong.

    Thanks for all of your help!
    Last edited by JMcB; 05-28-2020 at 04:14 PM.
    Paper Trail: 43.8% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  11. #706
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    Another big paper on French aDNA is out. Looks like no further Neolithic surprises for us. https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/22/eaaz5344
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,100 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  13. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Another big paper on French aDNA is out. Looks like no further Neolithic surprises for us. https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/22/eaaz5344
    Damn you're quick, I was just about to post it too.

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  15. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Another big paper on French aDNA is out. Looks like no further Neolithic surprises for us. https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/22/eaaz5344
    Thankfully, it’s not behind a paywall either.
    Paper Trail: 43.8% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  17. #709
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    Just adds more skepticism that I1 and even less likely I1a2 was found in Neolithic and EBA South France. And the C1a and H2 lineages didn't have much luck in surviving the post Neolithic age in Europe.

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  19. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by oz View Post
    Just adds more skepticism that I1 and even less likely I1a2 was found in Neolithic and EBA South France. And the C1a and H2 lineages didn't have much luck in surviving the post Neolithic age in Europe.
    Or if they do prove to be I1 it bolsters the case that they were outliers who had travelled a long distance. The BES sample looks firmly Belgic for example, based on modelling on this forum.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,100 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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