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Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bygdedweller View Post
    Much like you said, I believe his main point is a structural resemblance. NBA had political entities and elites that were able to generate huge surplus by maritime raiding, slaving and trade, combined with commoners subsisting by agropastoralism, so it must have been stratified in a similar capacity to the VA. He does emphasize that there were fluctuations in the pattern, although I don’t think he contends much with the specifically disruptive elements during the later Iron Age, other than pointing out the overall trend of the IA; Scandinavia became self-sustaining with regards to the production of iron leading to localization. That drastically reduced the emphasis on international seafaring and trade, resulting in a greater degree of egalitarianism, yet with more in-fighting and larger entities dissolving into splinter groups. Obviously, the migration era changed this localized pattern, with the outward-looking impulse re-appearing in an even greater magnitude. This doesn’t necessarily preclude a turnover in the form of new tribes or collective units from the outside gathering power though, as I see it, but I haven’t yet seen a fleshed out version of this theory.

    As for sampling variety, I hope for this too. There’s a lot of hotly debated questions they can clear up with just a few chronologically spread out samples from Western Norway for instance. To this day, I don’t think any sample from this area has ever made it into a paper (except perhaps from the mesolithic?). I think the impact of Battle Axe remained fairly high especially in the inland areas of Sweden and Eastern/Mid-Norway. I expect that a great deal of BAC-lineages would have been assimilated into whatever new elites appeared from the South if the modern distribution is any indication. It will be highly interesting to see to what extent though. For now, most of the Battle Axe-samples we have are limited to a few select southern parts of Sweden, so there’s really a huge part of the story missing for BAC as well in terms of genetic structure. We don't even know for sure what uniparentals were present in the BAC-area. There's a of educated guesses, but I’m certain some surprises await here too.

    DNA from Valsgärde or Vendel would be a dream come true and highly instructive for any future theories, absolutely. If they can prove a link to the elites in Norway, on the continent and in the British isles, that would be about as interesting as it could get. I know that the some of those buried in Valsgärde are even speculated to be royals, and there's an intriguing parallell in the findings from Ĺker in Eastern Norway, as well as Sutton Hoo. Here's some of the quotes (loosely translated) from that book I mentioned by the way: (mods or anyone affiliated with the book/project, let me know if I should remove it)
     

    (Context is a discussion on hillforts that were constructed during the migration era)
    The hillforts may be a result of local conflicts, but they can also be a result of intruders from the outside, as suggested by the historian Andreas Holmsen. New DNA-research may provide us with proof[…] Ellingvĺg points out that it doesn’t necessarily need to be a large amount of people. Small groups could have left a large genetic footprint, if they were more able to reproduce.
    […]
    Ellingvĺg is part of a project to collect «warrior-DNA». The goal is to see if those buried together with weapons have the haplogroups R1a and R1b. The material is comprehensive. Bone material from a significant amount of grave mounds have been preserved in the collections of Scandinavian museums. As part of DNA pre-project in Copenhagen he has done «shotgun-sampling», but points out that the findings so far leave us with well-founded questions, yet no unambiguous answers. Ellingvĺg says that findings indicate our pre-historic ancestors travelled more than previously assumed. Knuckles show examples of humans being buried hundreds of kilometers from wherever they grew up. Perhaps it was not that unusual to set out on extended periods of travel in the past?
    […]
    Dagfinn Skre, who has worked on hillforts in Romerike, thinks they lost relevance as a result of the centralization of power, in which the pattern of chieftains ruling over each small hill is being replaced by regional petty kings. The Danish archaeologist Lotte Hedeager advocates a similar point of view, pointing out that that organized military units under the rule of a war lord, such as the hird, came into being during this time.
    […]
    Ellingvĺg wants to test Hedeager’s hypothesis that there should have been migration into Scandinavia at this point. At the DNA-lab in Copenhagen he has received strong indications that this is indeed correct, although much work remains. His hypothesis is that Norway too is affected by the migration era in the form of families, maybe even whole tribes, returning to Norway after having lived for generations on the continent, on travels that may have spanned over several generations. Another possibility is that these great changes in culture, religion and technology that co-incide with the migration era, are a result of new peoples from the outside dethroning the old elites while taking over the best farming lands.
    Definitely. About the Mesolithic sample from Western Norway, do you know the sample name? I remember that there is a hunter-gatherer sample from Steigens but I'm sure there are others too. I also believe that BAC lineages made it into Nordic Bronze Age elites. I personally think that they may have been more "locally" contained than I1 and R1b-U106 which we know went through rather explosive frequency growth in Scandinavia during the Nordic Bronze Age. Maybe if the Battle Axe remnants mostly stuck to their old inland parts of Norway and Sweden that could explain why R1a-Z284 seems less common than R1b-U106 and I1 in Migration Era samples found on the continent. Then again, judging by Wielbark samples it seems that some Iron Age tribes likely had extremely high frequencies of I1, with some R1b-U106 definitely thrown in there as well. Alternatively, that old Battle Axe sphere was just wealthy and powerful enough that they didn't have to seek fortune elsewhere and migrate. As you say, BAC samples from somewhere else than just Scania will clear this up, hopefully. I guess we should also keep in mind that R1b-U106 may have been much more common than we think in inland Norway and Sweden at the time. After all, the oldest U106 find is still from Scania, unless a more recent one has been found, I haven't really kept up. In any case I do think that there is a good possibility that R1b-U106 has a lot more to do with Corded Ware than with Bell Beakers.

    The presumed I1-rich and R1b-U106-rich LN groups in Scania are very interesting, though. I read an interesting piece on their physical anthropology recently: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ple_of_Abbekas
    This is from Abbekĺs where the sample RISE179 is from, and from Dragby. These people were, at least in terms of physicality, quite impressive for their time:
    "Gejvall (1963) analysed a Late Neolithic gallery grave from Dragby, central Sweden. The number of individuals is relatively small (8 males and 13 females), but the reported mean stature is very high, 181.4 cm for males and 169.0 for females."

    Regarding a possible link between the elites in Norway and Valsgärde: This could be bordering on the esoteric, but what comes to my mind is the Yngling dynasty. Snorri said that Olaf Tree Feller founded the Norwegian branch of the Yngling dynasty. Does that add up chronologically with Valsgärde at all? Anyway, the connection between Ĺker, Sutton Hoo and also Valsgärde is very interesting. Archaeologist Rupert Bruce-Mitford believed that the Wulfing clan mentioned in Beowulf became the East Anglian Wuffing dynasty. There is a lot of striking similarity between the Valsgärde helmets and the Sutton Hoo helmet, but of course this could also just be a coincidence since all Germanic material culture was quite similar at the time. Something else that would be interesting would be some high-status Iron Age burial DNA from East Anglia. Maybe this project will yield something like that: https://www.crick.ac.uk/news/2019-10...e-21st-century
    I think that project will show a lot of Iron Age I1, hopefully it'll provide many high quality samples.

    Thanks for the translation by the way! I really hope we'll get to see more of Sturla's projects in the future.
    Last edited by Strider99; 02-08-2021 at 02:31 PM.

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    The RISE samples from the Allentoft 2015 paper don't have very good coverage. I went through RISE179's BAM file a while ago and he was no call for >300 of the SNPs that define modern I1. He has just two derived reads for the SNPs on the I1 level - CTS3506/Z2765 (1G), CTS313/Z2681 (1C) and both of those are one read - we've seen a lot of such SNPs being shown to be false positives in other ancient DNA samples when looking for phylogenetic consistency. Unfortunately, the lack of data given that he's missing reads on >99% of the SNPs on the I1 level means it's difficult to assign him with any confidence. He could be I1, but he could also be pre-I1 - by that I mean he comes some way down the evolutionary path with I1, but branches off before the TMRCA of modern I1 - as for SF11, BAL051, Car1 (and probably BAB5). His 14C dating isn't far off the TMRCA of modern I1. A really interesting sample, shame the data is so poor.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    The RISE samples from the Allentoft 2015 paper don't have very good coverage. I went through RISE179's BAM file a while ago and he was no call for >300 of the SNPs that define modern I1. He has just two derived reads for the SNPs on the I1 level - CTS3506/Z2765 (1G), CTS313/Z2681 (1C) and both of those are one read - we've seen a lot of such SNPs being shown to be false positives in other ancient DNA samples when looking for phylogenetic consistency. Unfortunately, the lack of data given that he's missing reads on >99% of the SNPs on the I1 level means it's difficult to assign him with any confidence. He could be I1, but he could also be pre-I1 - by that I mean he comes some way down the evolutionary path with I1, but branches off before the TMRCA of modern I1 - as for SF11, BAL051, Car1 (and probably BAB5). His 14C dating isn't far off the TMRCA of modern I1. A really interesting sample, shame the data is so poor.
    It's a shame that the sample is so low coverage. Hopefully we'll get some more high quality late Neolithic samples from that area in the near future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider99 View Post
    Definitely. About the Mesolithic sample from Western Norway, do you know the sample name? I remember that there is a hunter-gatherer sample from Steigen but I'm sure there are others too.
    You find information on Mesolithic samples from Scandinavia here. Hummervikholmen(2) is the oldest one (about 9.400y), an underwater find, I2-M438/U5a1 with 2/3 EHG.

    pbio.2003703.t001.png
    pbio.2003703.g001.png

    https://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...AuUMdH9dXmkBBI
    Last edited by Kaltmeister; 02-08-2021 at 06:28 PM.

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    Wow a lot of fantastic info has been added to this thread since I last checked in. Since I have had -0- luck in pinpointing the ancestral origins of my Ydna I had begun paying closer attention to the studies of ancient samples if for no other reason than possibly finding at least a snippet of info that might be used to advise my own search. FYI, I'm the oddball among my Ydna matches without a surname match and also along with that of course I don't match anyone at all within my surname family project(Molloy) My 67 level results were I1-M253/L813/FGC9462. I have seen a few I1-M253/L813 matches from 100s of years ago wholly unrelated to me in terms of family but don't know where that falls in terms of ancient samples or locations or if that can even be determined. I had at one time thought hmm, maybe I have found the link when I read the Irish Wars Against the Foreigners and in that book it was stated that 2 Irish clans openly allied with the Danes and those 2 families were the O'Donovan's and the O'Molloys. That book has been discredited however apparently and even if true, still doesn't prove anything on a scientific level. In any case, I definitely enjoy the info and knowledge I've gained from this website and the links to studies that have been posted.
    Last edited by Kamo; 02-17-2021 at 05:58 AM.

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  11. #856
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamo View Post
    Wow a lot of fantastic info has been added to this thread since I last checked in. Since I have had -0- luck in pinpointing the ancestral origins of my Ydna I had begun paying closer attention to the studies of ancient samples if for no other reason than possibly finding at least a snippet of info that might be used to advise my own search. FYI, I'm the oddball among my Ydna matches without a surname match and also along with that of course I don't match anyone at all within my surname family project(Molloy) My 67 level results were I1-M253/L813/FGC9462. I have seen a few I1-M253/L813 matches from 100s of years ago wholly unrelated to me in terms of family but don't know where that falls in terms of ancient samples or locations or if that can even be determined. I had at one time thought hmm, maybe I have found the link when I read the Irish Wars Against the Foreigners and in that book it was stated that 2 Irish clans openly allied with the Danes and those 2 families were the O'Donovan's and the O'Molloys. That book has been discredited however apparently and even if true, still doesn't prove anything on a scientific level. In any case, I definitely enjoy the info and knowledge I've gained from this website and the links to studies that have been posted.
    Hello,
    I am also in the I1-FGC9462 Haplogroup (I am I1-FGC9462+, I1-FGC9496+). How deep have you tested? Have you taken the Big-Y test?

    There are currently 20 Big-Y results that are positive for FGC9462 (12 Norwegian orgin, 4 Swedish orgin, 1 Irish orgin and 3 unknown orgin).
    Based on the current results it looks like I1-FGC9462+ originated in the border area between Hedmark, Norway and Värmland, Sweden about 250AD.

    If I had your Y-DNA results, I could probably narrow it down a little more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamus View Post
    Hello,
    I am also in the I1-FGC9462 Haplogroup (I am I1-FGC9462+, I1-FGC9496+). How deep have you tested? Have you taken the Big-Y test?

    There are currently 20 Big-Y results that are positive for FGC9462 (12 Norwegian orgin, 4 Swedish orgin, 1 Irish orgin and 3 unknown orgin).
    Based on the current results it looks like I1-FGC9462+ originated in the border area between Hedmark, Norway and Värmland, Sweden about 250AD.

    If I had your Y-DNA results, I could probably narrow it down a little more.
    Happy for you guys to discuss your I-L813 subclades, but if it's going to move away from this thread's main topic of ancient DNA samples, could I please ask you to move the discussion into one of the I-L813 threads? There's a couple here https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....Subclade-L-813 and https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7587-L813

    Regarding Ancient I-L813, there were definitely a few in last year's "Population Genomics of the Viking World" paper and one (HSJ-A1) in the 2018 Ancient Icelanders paper. Five of these were good enough quality to be included on the YFull tree https://yfull.com/tree/i-l813/
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Happy for you guys to discuss your I-L813 subclades, but if it's going to move away from this thread's main topic of ancient DNA samples, could I please ask you to move the discussion into one of the I-L813 threads? There's a couple here https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....Subclade-L-813 and https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7587-L813

    Regarding Ancient I-L813, there were definitely a few in last year's "Population Genomics of the Viking World" paper and one (HSJ-A1) in the 2018 Ancient Icelanders paper. Five of these were good enough quality to be included on the YFull tree https://yfull.com/tree/i-l813/
    Yes I understand. Did not want to go too far afield from the point of this thread. Thanks for the L813 link.

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    It’s been a while since we had anything new to discuss here with regard to ancient I1 (and pre-I1), but hopefully this one is worth the wait.

    This preprint came out on biorvix last year – link https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...08.19.256412v1 – and main premise of the paper is a minimally destructive method for extracting ancient DNA from dental cementum of tooth roots. This is interesting of itself, as hopefully it will allow the analysis of some samples that have not been conducted due to reluctance to allow irreversible damage to the ancient remains.

    What is interesting (but isn’t touched on in the preprint itself) is the Y-DNA haplogroup of one of the individuals in this study, HUNG153 (individual 13 in the preprint). The researchers did two analyses on this individual, one using the minimally destructive extraction and another using whole tooth root completely powdered via milling. As a result, there are two BAM files with ID I20745 and I20767 for this individual and the BAM files are at ENA.

    Having two BAM files isn’t a problem as the IGV allows the viewing of more than one BAM file simultaneously. Looking at HUNG153’s genome, there are reads for 56 SNPs on the I1 level – 45 derived, 10 ancestral and one ambiguous.

    Derived calls: Z2699 (3C), L840 (1G), Z2880 (1A), FGC7747 (1G), Z2718 (1T), Z2756 (2T), Z2807 (1T), Z2729 (1T), Z2751 (1A), Z2700 (1C), CTS6140 (1C), Z2823 (1T), L496 (1T), Z2752 (1G), FGC2422 (1T), CTS11042 (1C), CTS1755/Z2750 (1T), Z2717 (1G), CTS9518 (1T), CTS8394 (2A), L81 (1C), Z2825 (1A), Z2805 (1A), Z2723 (1T), CTS9486 (1T), Z2705 (1T), Z2836 (1G), Z2812 (1T), FGC2438 (1G), Y1950 (CTGG to CGGA, deletion of T), Z2852 (2T), CTS4295 (1T), CTS2410 (1A), Z2724 (1A), L764 (2T), FGC2441 (1G), CTS9487 (1A), CTS641 (2T), Z2775 (1C), CTS11675 (1T), Y1940 (1T), CTS8708 (1A), Z2851 (2G), CTS22 (1A).

    Ancestral calls: Z2726 (2A), Y964 (1G), Z2846 (1C), L347 (3C), CTS6006 (1G), CTS6022 (1G), Z6116 (1A or 3A), Z2828 (1A), Z2683 (6C), Y1873 (1C).

    Ambiguous calls: L1439 (1A, 1C).

    So HUNG153 is pre-I1, but he is closer to modern I1 than any of the other confirmed pre-I1 samples (more derived to ancestral ratio, although as with all ancient DNA samples, a large number of no calls). He is also the youngest confirmed pre-I1, with the preprint Table 1 listing him as dated to 2,600-2,400 BP. This also makes him a pre-I1 that’s around after the TMRCA of modern I1.

    The preprint says the sample is from Kesznyéten-Szérűskert, Hungary. Kesznyéten is a village Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén County in northeastern Hungary. I couldn’t find much about the archaeological context of this individual – the preprint references Hellebrandt 1988, but all I’ve been able to find are things like this https://en.mandadb.hu/common/file-se...terve_8984.pdf which appears to be an article written in Hungarian and then scanned. Don’t seem to be able to cut and paste into auto-translation tools. If anyone has any better luck (or can translate themselves), I’d be interested.

    So this is the closest pre-I1 we have to the root of modern I1, both in terms of SNPs and age. An interesting one, I’m sure fellow ancient I1 enthusiasts will agree.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    If anyone has any better luck (or can translate themselves), I’d be interested.
    http://kesznyeten.hu/kesznyeten_konyve.pdf
    an except from the introduction in google translate:

    The first inhabitants of Kesznyéten
    To our knowledge, human civilization is first
    its representatives settled about three thousand years ago
    in the municipality. Already in the 1930s
    Several archeological finds during the construction of the service water canal
    was found, but then the rescue was delayed, it was not claimed
    down the construction site. Some scattered memories of the 70s
    after the serious exploration took place in the mid-80s B.
    Hellebrandt to Magdolna, the Herman Otto Museum
    under the direction of his archaeologist. Late Bronze and
    early
    cemeteries were also found in two places,
    directly to the current inner area of ​​the village
    neighborhood (Figures 1-2 and 3). From these
    The finds of Kesznyéten-Szérűskert are in the most detail
    processed. 75 graves were found here following the archaeologist's spade,
    with interesting attachments (Figure 4). Conspicuous
    special feature of the cemetery is the double, skeletal and
    cremation burial mode, suggesting more
    culture lived side by side here: the oldest is the so-called. gava
    culture
    , but the influence of the Scythians and Gauls, presumably
    mixing
    can also be observed with the Kesznyéteni finds
    Based on. Some of the clay pots found
    made by disk, the rest by hand shaping,
    which is also evidence of mixing.
    In the absence of material memories, we can only guess what
    what happened next to Kesznyéten was the Romans, the Avars
    or just in the age of the conquering Hungarians. Everything
    likely - based only on what has been said about the name of the village
    also - that our ancestors may have settled in this nomad very early on
    in a landscape ideal for animal husbandry. Archaeological
    9
    however, their memories have not yet succeeded
    to find it, not to look for it so far
    nobody.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A...igrady_culture

    The Gáva-Holigrady culture was a late Bronze Age culture of Eastern Slovakia, Western Ukraine (Zakarpats'ka Oblast and Dnister river basin), Northwestern Romania and Northeastern Hungary.

    It is considered a subtype of the Urnfield culture.

    Gava-Holigrady culture is named after an archaeological settlement Gava in Northeastern Hungary and an archaeological site Holigrady (Голігради) in Ukrainian Ternopil Oblast.

    In Slovakia, the culture has originated in the early twentieth century BC.

    Gáva people lived in settlements and castles that they built in the Slovakian and Transylvanian uplands.

    Gava-Holigrad people are considered to be of Thracian (?) ethnicity.
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