Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 15

Thread: Anglo-Saxon vs Danish Viking Haplogroups

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Posts
    5
    Sex
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-S1954
    mtDNA (M)
    k1a1b1a

    United States of America

    Wink Anglo-Saxon vs Danish Viking Haplogroups

    Hi everyone,

    I was pondering the impact that the Anglo-Saxons had on the British Isles and the area where Haplogroup I1 is most prevalent in Britain is in eastern England. However, is there a reliable way to distinguish which Y-DNA Haplogroup I1 is Anglo-Saxon or Danish Viking? Where the most I1 is seen is where both the Anglo-Saxons and Danes settled. Most of the studies I have read concluded that Anglo-Saxon and Viking DNA are too similar to be differentiated. There is some debate as to whether or not the Anglo-Saxons had a huge impact on the genetics of Britain, but the significant Danish presence cannot be denied. I understand that both groups have many Haplogroups prevalent among them, like R1b, but they are mainly I1 and come from the same geographical region, particularly the Angles and Danes. Is there a reliable way to distinguish the I1 from both of these groups?

    Any input is appreciated

  2. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to tigertank529 For This Useful Post:

     jdbreazeale (11-09-2020),  JerryS. (11-10-2020),  JMcB (11-10-2020),  leorcooper19 (11-19-2020),  mwauthy (11-09-2020),  Shanck (11-17-2020),  sheepslayer (11-10-2020)

  3. #2
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    794
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Ethnicity
    European
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-L338
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c1

    United Kingdom Northumberland European Union
    I would say not currently and probably not in the future, especially not reliably. While the recent Population Genetics of the Viking World paper provided a lot of ancient Viking era samples (including 92 I1 individuals), we're rather lacking in sequenced ancient Anglo-Saxon samples - to my knowledge we only have one male and he's I1 but haven't been able to reliably assign him anything downstream of I-DF29. When you plot the ancient vikings onto the phylogenetic trees established by modern testers, in a lot of cases they branch of from modern individuals significantly before the viking period, which suggests that in a lot of places the current phylogenetic tree isn't developed enough to mark the relevant SNP mutations. Many subclade branches will predate both the viking age and the Anglo-Saxon migration - your own I-S1954 has a TMRCA of 3900-2500 years ago, which predates both and is likely represented in both. I think the problem (as with autosomal DNA) is that both the Anglo-Saxons and Danish Vikings come from similar geographic regions and aren't very far apart in time frame (especially considering the timeframe of Y-SNP mutation rate), so it's likely that they had the same source population further back. And also consider that these weren't isolated populations - they would have mixed with each other to a certain extent which muddies things further.

    I don't think there's any debate that the Anglo-Saxons had a huge impact on the genetics of Britain - the big red cluster in the POBI paper shows that. The debate was whether vikings had a significant contribution - initially the POBI paper's conclusion was no but later academics have argued that the DNA is too similar and the viking component is being grouped in with Anglo-Saxon. I also wouldn't say that the vikings were mainly I1 - while I1 was the most common haplogroup in the recent viking paper at 32.06%, that's not an overwhelming majority and the percentages for R1b (29.27%) and R1a (21.25%) are not significantly less and generally in the same ballpark. Put another way, 68% of samples from the viking paper were not I1, which is more than double the percentage of I1 samples. Modern percentages in Scandinavian nations are not too different from these percentages.

    It may be possible with a lot more data (both ancient and modern) to call specific, individual cases either way and perhaps there are some trends - the Viking paper had more I-P109 samples than other subgroups. But we also have ancient I-P109 samples that were not vikings and again the TMRCA of I-P109 predates both, and there are non-P109 samples in the dataset. I think most subclades (especially the more commonly referred to groupings) will be represented in both. So I don't think there will be a "reliable" way to distinguish between them. Happy to be proved wrong though.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

  4. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to deadly77 For This Useful Post:

     GoldenHind (11-09-2020),  jdbreazeale (11-09-2020),  JerryS. (11-10-2020),  JMcB (11-10-2020),  leorcooper19 (11-19-2020),  Marmaduke (11-09-2020),  Michał (11-10-2020),  mwauthy (11-09-2020),  Pribislav (11-09-2020),  Salamander (11-20-2020),  Shanck (11-17-2020),  sheepslayer (11-10-2020),  tigertank529 (11-09-2020)

  5. #3
    Junior Member
    Posts
    5
    Sex
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-S1954
    mtDNA (M)
    k1a1b1a

    United States of America
    Thanks for the reply!

    That clears a lot of things up for me. I guess more testing has to be done in order to effectively establish a difference and perhaps companies that get a lot of results like 23andme could test further downstream or refine their process for haplogroup placements. I would like it if 23andme tested haplogroups much further downstream instead of giving rather generic placements, but for what they are I've learned so much. Just for clarification, I know that the Anglo-Saxons did have a huge impact on Britain as a whole but I guess the more one-sided outlets have been whittling away at me. My last name wouldn't be what it is if it weren't for them Cheers!

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to tigertank529 For This Useful Post:

     deadly77 (11-10-2020),  JMcB (11-10-2020)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,232
    Ethnicity
    Northern Ireland
    Nationality
    Northern Irish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L193(BY2634)

    Northern Ireland Ireland Scotland
    I notice a lot of Ulster Scots have I1 as a haplogroup. (Obviously aswell as R1b-L193)

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Nqp15hhu For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (11-10-2020),  tigertank529 (11-11-2020)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,607
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Nationality
    Canadian

    Canada Netherlands United Kingdom Cornwall Ireland France
    Quote Originally Posted by tigertank529 View Post
    Thanks for the reply!

    That clears a lot of things up for me. I guess more testing has to be done in order to effectively establish a difference and perhaps companies that get a lot of results like 23andme could test further downstream or refine their process for haplogroup placements. I would like it if 23andme tested haplogroups much further downstream instead of giving rather generic placements, but for what they are I've learned so much. Just for clarification, I know that the Anglo-Saxons did have a huge impact on Britain as a whole but I guess the more one-sided outlets have been whittling away at me. My last name wouldn't be what it is if it weren't for them Cheers!
    I don't think it will ever really be possible to discern Anglo-Saxon I1 from Danish I1. The two groups are really separated by some relatively small amount of generations and they share a lot of the same ancestry to begin with (well at least prior to the Anglo-Saxons arrival in Britain). So there is a lot of overlap between the two groups.

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to spruithean For This Useful Post:

     deadly77 (11-11-2020),  JMcB (11-11-2020),  tigertank529 (11-11-2020),  uintah106 (11-17-2020)

  11. #6
    Junior Member
    Posts
    5
    Sex
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-S1954
    mtDNA (M)
    k1a1b1a

    United States of America
    That makes sense given most Ulster Scots have origins in the lowlands of Scotland. I'm proof of that, my 3x great grandfather is from County Donegal. I wish it was easier to track where a lot of the Ulster Scots came from in Scotland but a lot of the records pre-famine seem to be destroyed or lost, at least for Donegal. If we could find some of those records it would be a lot easier to pinpoint where a lot of the sources or hotspots for I1 and other Ulster Scots haplogroups came from in Scotland.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to tigertank529 For This Useful Post:

     Nqp15hhu (11-11-2020)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    77
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Colonial American
    Nationality
    Tennessean
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-Y150765
    mtDNA (M)
    H1j4

    United States of America
    I figure if enough data percolates in the database, clades formed after the Viking Age and after the Anglo-Saxon invasion will start appearing in the leaves of the tree. Those clades are technically Viking and Anglo-Saxon, it's just a matter of getting lucky with ancient DNA. Best case scenario we'll have like 3 clades where they dug up a Viking and he happens to test positive for the SNP formed after AD 900
    Predominantly Appalachian, Middle TN, and North GA roots

    Y-DNA in BR2's branch J-Z30682 (under M172, M67, Z7671, and Y11200). Interested in Z7671 and other J2 in the Caucasus

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to sheepslayer For This Useful Post:

     tigertank529 (11-11-2020)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,232
    Ethnicity
    Northern Ireland
    Nationality
    Northern Irish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L193(BY2634)

    Northern Ireland Ireland Scotland
    Quote Originally Posted by tigertank529 View Post
    That makes sense given most Ulster Scots have origins in the lowlands of Scotland. I'm proof of that, my 3x great grandfather is from County Donegal. I wish it was easier to track where a lot of the Ulster Scots came from in Scotland but a lot of the records pre-famine seem to be destroyed or lost, at least for Donegal. If we could find some of those records it would be a lot easier to pinpoint where a lot of the sources or hotspots for I1 and other Ulster Scots haplogroups came from in Scotland.
    I think they came from all over Scotland to be honest, though obviously concentrated mostly down in the South and SW. You could try a BIG Y test, but it probably will provide you with a lot of distant matches.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Nqp15hhu For This Useful Post:

     tigertank529 (11-13-2020)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,607
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Nationality
    Canadian

    Canada Netherlands United Kingdom Cornwall Ireland France
    Quote Originally Posted by tigertank529 View Post
    That makes sense given most Ulster Scots have origins in the lowlands of Scotland. I'm proof of that, my 3x great grandfather is from County Donegal. I wish it was easier to track where a lot of the Ulster Scots came from in Scotland but a lot of the records pre-famine seem to be destroyed or lost, at least for Donegal. If we could find some of those records it would be a lot easier to pinpoint where a lot of the sources or hotspots for I1 and other Ulster Scots haplogroups came from in Scotland.
    I also have some ancestors from Donegal, some of which were likely Ulster-Scots, though they did not contribute to my direct Y-line, which is I1 and from Scotland (don't know which part), though my closest match who shares a variant of my surname and isn't a known relative has roots in Co. Down.

    Quote Originally Posted by sheepslayer View Post
    I figure if enough data percolates in the database, clades formed after the Viking Age and after the Anglo-Saxon invasion will start appearing in the leaves of the tree. Those clades are technically Viking and Anglo-Saxon, it's just a matter of getting lucky with ancient DNA. Best case scenario we'll have like 3 clades where they dug up a Viking and he happens to test positive for the SNP formed after AD 900
    Fair enough, though so far the amount of ancient I1 found has been quite low, though the Viking paper has helped boost the numbers. There is still a lot of work ahead if we are going to figure out which clades are Anglo-Saxon and which are Viking Age.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    I think they came from all over Scotland to be honest, though obviously concentrated mostly down in the South and SW. You could try a BIG Y test, but it probably will provide you with a lot of distant matches.
    Yeah, I would imagine that the initial call for settlers by the undertakers would have attracted more than just Scots from the S & SW of Scotland. I1 isn't as common as R1b so I'm not sure how many matches one might get with Big Y, mileage will vary widely. For me the test was only good for ruling out STR matches and making it clear that I'm on my own upstream branch with my closest matches downstream of my position.
    Last edited by spruithean; 11-12-2020 at 05:55 PM.

  18. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to spruithean For This Useful Post:

     deadly77 (11-12-2020),  JMcB (11-12-2020),  sheepslayer (11-12-2020),  tigertank529 (11-13-2020)

  19. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    745
    Sex
    Location
    Lyon, France
    Ethnicity
    West European
    Nationality
    French
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1-Z17954>A8096
    mtDNA (M)
    H1e1a
    mtDNA (P)
    H6

    France Lyon France Germany Byzantine Empire
    We must not forget the Z17954 subclade which quickly broke away to populate France and Great Britain during the Bronze Age, probably.
    V2 K15 (Average France) => North Sea : 27.46 (28.25) - Atlantic : 21.26 (26.05) - West Med : 19.05 (15.53) - Baltic : 9.17 (8.22) - Eastern Euro : 8.80 (6.32) - West Asian : 6.31 (4.66) - East Med : 4.85 (6.72) - Red Sea : 2.08 (2.83) - Amerindian : 1.02 (0.20)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Anglo Saxon Haplogroups and Types
    By BillMC in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 09-18-2019, 05:23 PM
  2. Anglo-Saxon Tomb
    By spruithean in forum History (Medieval)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-10-2019, 02:42 AM
  3. "Roman DNA" "Anglo-Saxon DNA" "Viking DNA"
    By RandomUsernameGuy in forum General
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 12-23-2018, 07:25 PM
  4. Replies: 82
    Last Post: 11-26-2017, 10:20 PM
  5. I1 from Anglo-Saxon
    By Jean M in forum I1-M253
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-19-2016, 08:52 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •