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Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

  1. #861
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    It’s been a while since we had anything new to discuss here with regard to ancient I1 (and pre-I1), but hopefully this one is worth the wait.

    This preprint came out on biorvix last year – link https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...08.19.256412v1 – and main premise of the paper is a minimally destructive method for extracting ancient DNA from dental cementum of tooth roots. This is interesting of itself, as hopefully it will allow the analysis of some samples that have not been conducted due to reluctance to allow irreversible damage to the ancient remains.

    What is interesting (but isn’t touched on in the preprint itself) is the Y-DNA haplogroup of one of the individuals in this study, HUNG153 (individual 13 in the preprint). The researchers did two analyses on this individual, one using the minimally destructive extraction and another using whole tooth root completely powdered via milling. As a result, there are two BAM files with ID I20745 and I20767 for this individual and the BAM files are at ENA.

    Having two BAM files isn’t a problem as the IGV allows the viewing of more than one BAM file simultaneously. Looking at HUNG153’s genome, there are reads for 56 SNPs on the I1 level – 45 derived, 10 ancestral and one ambiguous.

    Derived calls: Z2699 (3C), L840 (1G), Z2880 (1A), FGC7747 (1G), Z2718 (1T), Z2756 (2T), Z2807 (1T), Z2729 (1T), Z2751 (1A), Z2700 (1C), CTS6140 (1C), Z2823 (1T), L496 (1T), Z2752 (1G), FGC2422 (1T), CTS11042 (1C), CTS1755/Z2750 (1T), Z2717 (1G), CTS9518 (1T), CTS8394 (2A), L81 (1C), Z2825 (1A), Z2805 (1A), Z2723 (1T), CTS9486 (1T), Z2705 (1T), Z2836 (1G), Z2812 (1T), FGC2438 (1G), Y1950 (CTGG to CGGA, deletion of T), Z2852 (2T), CTS4295 (1T), CTS2410 (1A), Z2724 (1A), L764 (2T), FGC2441 (1G), CTS9487 (1A), CTS641 (2T), Z2775 (1C), CTS11675 (1T), Y1940 (1T), CTS8708 (1A), Z2851 (2G), CTS22 (1A).

    Ancestral calls: Z2726 (2A), Y964 (1G), Z2846 (1C), L347 (3C), CTS6006 (1G), CTS6022 (1G), Z6116 (1A or 3A), Z2828 (1A), Z2683 (6C), Y1873 (1C).

    Ambiguous calls: L1439 (1A, 1C).

    So HUNG153 is pre-I1, but he is closer to modern I1 than any of the other confirmed pre-I1 samples (more derived to ancestral ratio, although as with all ancient DNA samples, a large number of no calls). He is also the youngest confirmed pre-I1, with the preprint Table 1 listing him as dated to 2,600-2,400 BP. This also makes him a pre-I1 that’s around after the TMRCA of modern I1.

    The preprint says the sample is from Kesznyéten-Szérűskert, Hungary. Kesznyéten is a village Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén County in northeastern Hungary. I couldn’t find much about the archaeological context of this individual – the preprint references Hellebrandt 1988, but all I’ve been able to find are things like this https://en.mandadb.hu/common/file-se...terve_8984.pdf which appears to be an article written in Hungarian and then scanned. Don’t seem to be able to cut and paste into auto-translation tools. If anyone has any better luck (or can translate themselves), I’d be interested.

    So this is the closest pre-I1 we have to the root of modern I1, both in terms of SNPs and age. An interesting one, I’m sure fellow ancient I1 enthusiasts will agree.
    Very cool. HUNG153 along with BAB5 gives us 2 pre-I1 from Hungary, right? I wonder if that's just a coincidence or not.

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    On the genome data alone, there isn't enough to assign BAB5 to pre-I1 as the researchers only tested 33 SNPs and only one of these (M253) is relevant to I1. Given the age of BAB5 puts him before the TMRCA of modern I1, he's very likely pre-I1. But due to the lack of data, it's difficult to say where he branched off. BAB5 and HUNG153 aren't contemporaries though - BAB5 is dated to 5600-4900 BCE by archaeological context while HUNG153 is dated to 2,600-2,400 BP - or 650-450 BCE. So they're a similar magnitude of time apart from each other as we are from the MRCA of I1.

    Also from Hungary we have the two samples from the Hungarian conquerors/Avar paper - K2/26 and SzO/540. These are both after the TMRCA of modern I1 with K2/26 dated to 895 CE to mid 10th century and SzO/540 dated to 600–650/660 CE. But again the data is poor, SzO/540 only has 5 I1 SNPs read and K2/26 only has three. Since we have evidence of pre-I1 surviving past the TMRCA of modern I1, and we don't know when all pre-I1 lines went extinct, we can't assume that these are full I1. Same goes for the RISE samples. The other Hungarian ancient sample is SZ45 from the Lombard period cemetery at Szólád dated 6th century CE - he's definitely I1 due to good data and a lot of confirmed downstream SNPs. And that tells us we can't assume K2/26 or SzO/540 are pre-I1. Bit of murky waters with some of these poor data samples.

    Overall, in a wider context, with the pre-I1 samples we know about so far, I think this leans more to a widespread distribution of pre-I1 around Europe as a minor lineage and modern I1 resulting from a much more recent founder effect and rapid expansion at the same time as R1a and R1b. I think the presence of HUNG153 means it's less likely that the population bottleneck of I1 stems from the ancestors of modern I1 being isolated from the rest of Europe (which I didn't think was really the case anyway).
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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  4. #863
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    I wonder if/when a much larger percentage of men from this area of Europe get thorough Y chromosome testing done if we won’t find a “pre-I1” alive today?
    I-DF29: ool009 Skane, Sweden 1930-1750 BCE

    Z58, Z59, Z2041, Z2040, Z382, FGC24333

    S26361: VK532 Zealand, Denmark 200-375 CE

    S16414, FGC24354, FGC24357, FGC24356, S10350

    FGC75802/BY19383: VK446 Funen, Denmark 800-1050 CE

    Y125947, S21197, BY149414, BY188003, BY188570

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    I wonder if/when a much larger percentage of men from this area of Europe get thorough Y chromosome testing done if we won’t find a “pre-I1” alive today?
    It's not impossible. It might not get picked up on by the majority of tests - even the Big Y700 has a fair of no calls as it's a enrichment assay, and it's probably more noticeable in I1 samples due to the huge phylogenetic block. Although the positive results for SNPs in downstream branches can effectively rule out pre-I1 for most Big Y testers. Would likely only get full confirmation using a WGS, and the number of men who have taken that test is a much smaller pool. As far as I'm aware, no one to date has broken up the I1 phylogenetic block with a confirmed ancestral SNP on that level. But just because we we haven't found one yet, doesn't mean that they don't exist. They have had to move the root of the Y-tree at Y-Adam back on discovery of new samples. But in comparison, the most well tested population in the consumer DNA market is North America which has a lot of European ancestry, so chances are probably higher than some other places.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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    This is honestly really interesting news, perhaps in the future we'll finally be able to flesh out the history of I1 with a more complete picture.

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    Apologies for barging into thid thread amd potentially beating a dead horse, but what is everyone's take on the origin, trail and distribution of I1?

    Or simply put, where did it first develop, which populations did it latch on to and spread with, and when did the major founder effects of the I1 lineages take place?

    Relevant TMRCAs and deep subclades of the haplogroups are welcome, as well as some info on the oldest solid I1 samples and their most probable pre-I1 predecessors. Speculation is definitely welcome, do don't hold back your thoughts!

    It would be interesting to hear what you guys have to say.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 03-03-2021 at 12:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Apologies for barging into thid thread amd potentially beating a dead horse, but what is everyone's take on the origin, trail and distribution of I1?

    Or simply put, where did it first develop, which populations did it latch on to and spread with, and when did the major founder effects of the I1 lineages take place?

    Relevant TMRCAs and deep subclades of the haplogroups are welcome, as well as some info on the oldest solid I1 samples and their most probable pre-I1 predecessors. Speculation is definitely welcome, do don't hold back your thoughts!

    It would be interesting to hear what you guys have to say.

    Perhaps, a good place to start would be with Deadly77’s map. If you haven’t seen it already.

    You can always find it in his signature or here:

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...RGi9YMSIzjeugI
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  14. #868
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Apologies for barging into thid thread amd potentially beating a dead horse, but what is everyone's take on the origin, trail and distribution of I1?

    Or simply put, where did it first develop, which populations did it latch on to and spread with, and when did the major founder effects of the I1 lineages take place?

    It would be interesting to hear what you guys have to say.
    My own, completely amateur speculative take:

    I think that it's quite likely that I1 was present in a farmer pocket rich in hunter-gatherer ancestry somewhere in Central Europe (Poland, Germany?) during the time of the Corded Ware expansion into Germany. Given that we have quite a few samples from Middle Neolithic EEF groups in Germany, maybe it would've been the Rössen culture. As far as I know there are no samples from Rössen yet. Anyway, considering that current samples from Neolithic Central Europe tells us that I1 can't have been common, it must have been a pretty damn rare lineage even there. Then there's the over 300 unique mutations (suggesting maybe that I1 originated in a fairly small population?).

    We know things didn't end up great for most farmers in Poland, Germany, etc. Massacres like the one discussed in this study were probably commonplace. https://www.pnas.org/content/116/22/10705
    However, we also know that in rare cases the Indo-Europeans assimilated local males Since the TMRCA of I1 is thought to be 2500 BC-ish that does align pretty well with a possible assimilation into Indo-European speaking groups. If I could guess I'd say that they probably brought I1 into Scandinavia, but we know that Battle Axe men mostly carried R1a, so if they did bring I1 it would have to be very rare among them still.

    I remember that Davidski at Eurogenes pointed out that I1 would have to have been at very low frequency prior to the Nordic Bronze Age. This is because the phylogeny of I1 is, as he describes it in the comment section of this blog post, very shallow: https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/...ehistoric.html
    The rather explosive growth of I1 makes it pretty clear that males of some clans carrying I1 were very successful during the Nordic Bronze Age.
    If we assume that sample RISE179 despite low coverage is a "full-fledged I1", that could give some kind of hint towards how this process went. If he was, then it would seem that some I1-carriers had attained a high status in the Late Neolithic Scandinavian society and this merely continued in the Nordic Bronze Age. The details of his burial hints at him belonging to the elite, as does the details of the burial of Nordic Bronze Age sample RISE175.

    I think that Riverman on this forum has an interesting theory on the origin of I1, as well. He, if I remember right, believes that it spread towards Scandinavia during or right after the Unetice culture collapse. I believe that is how he explained the important role of I1 in the Nordic Bronze Age. In the case of his theory being right, they would probably have had to arrived together with LN groups rich in R1b-U106 and some I2a2 lineages. However, there is no I1 in current Y-DNA samples from the Unetice culture. Then again, Unetice Y-DNA is quite diverse and the culture was not a single genetic entity, but had huge regional variation. Although doesn't sample oll009 predate the Unetice collapse by at least some time? Then there's the context of his burial which doesn't really hint at anything Unetice-related at all. Rather, it's just your typical Nordic LN stuff. On a side note, R1b-U106 in Scandinavia also predates any potential migrants from Unetice ( sample RISE98) which is a little strange.

    Going through some of the current evidence (or lack thereof):

    All Ahrensburg-derived Scandinavian hunter-gatherer cultures seem to have been rather consistent carriers of I2a/I2a1 lineages, excluding SF11 and some Y-DNA outliers like the more northern SHG with EHG lineages. I think there was 1 or 2 R1b SHG so far.
    Motala SHG: I2a1 and I2c
    SW Norway SHG: I2-M438
    Northern Norway SHG (Steigen): I2a1b-M423
    Stora Bjers Gotland SHG: I2-L68
    Pitted Ware culture SHG from which there is now 9 or 10 Y-DNA samples: I2
    Scandinavian Funnelbeaker, Rössberga: I*/IJ* (low coverage sample)
    Middle Neolithic Walternienburg-Bernburg culture, these guys are believed to have been back-migrants from Scandinavia/North of Saxony, returning south with more WHG admixture (very high) and possibly different Y-DNA. Y-DNA: I2a1. WB samples are from Haak 2015 and Mathieson 2018.

    Something fairly dramatic must obviously have happened to change this absolute dominance of I2 lineages that lasted well into the Neolithic, and we know that was the Indo-Europeans. I know that some people like to speak about PIE migrations as some kind of doomsday event and maybe that was the case for many local men native to Europe. But I can't shake the feeling that these migrations did I1-carriers a massive favor taking into account how rare I1 seems to have been prior to them and how much it must have thrived during the Bronze Age. The question is if you had I1-rich Late Neolithic groups walking around in Scandinavia and Northern Germany or not which is why it will be so interesting to get more LN samples. I think it's very interesting and also quite frustrating that there are hundreds of very old ancient I2, R1b, R1a, etc samples to be found in the DNA record but so far our earliest real I1 is Late Neolithic.

    As for the later dispersion of I1 we know that the Germanic expansion during the Migration Period played a huge role. As did the Viking Age. My own rambling aside, I would love to hear the theories of more seasoned people here.
    Last edited by Strider99; 03-03-2021 at 03:19 PM.

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    Strider99: Thanks for your ideas - but I think it is better to reserve this already quite extensive thread for the discussion of ancient I1-samples. A good location to deal with the origin of I1 is this place. You will find there my ideas about an origin in northern Scandinavia:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....igration-Story

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    I forgot to mention that Rössberga isn't the only Scandinavian TRB sample we have. There's also another 4 samples. Scandinavian Funnelbeaker, Gotland: I2a1 (all 4).

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