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Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

  1. #341
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    @spruithean

    Maybe I used the wrong word. What you say is what I mean.

    If the medieval period should be considered as the time of the great founder effect, then we have the black death. Current estimates point to loss of two thirds of the population in Sweden during the plague and the years following it.

    Migration period did not affect the Nordics, AFAIK. Except Denmark, perhaps.

  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by janan View Post
    @spruithean

    Maybe I used the wrong word. What you say is what I mean.

    If the medieval period should be considered as the time of the great founder effect, then we have the black death. Current estimates point to loss of two thirds of the population in Sweden during the plague and the years following it.

    Migration period did not affect the Nordics, AFAIK. Except Denmark, perhaps.
    I don't think the TMRCA for I1 fits the Medieval period (4600 ybp according to YFull), more likely the Bronze Age (the common star-like growth seen in other haplogroups). I think the majority of our ancient samples will fall into the Medieval category (including Migration period), which so far seems to be the case. Hopefully we can finally get some I1 (not pre-I1) from the right timeframe. Obviously the older pre-I1 samples from the Paleolithic and Neolithic are still part of the same line that branched from I-M170 that gave us modern I1, so they can at least provide some information about this pre-I1 (quasi-I1?) group and the distribution in prehistoric Europe.

    Perhaps, eventually if enough samples roll in, shifting the tree for I1 might result in pre-I1 being named I1 and current I1(M253) being named I1a, or something along those lines, which would then result in the nomenclature changing for I1b and I1c.

    Something like this perhaps:

    I-M170
    - I1 (instead of pre-I1)
    -- I1* (include the lineages of BAL051, SF11, BAB5, RISE175,179,207?)
    -- I1a (current I1)
    --- I1a1 (DF29, current I1a)
    --- I1a2 (Z131, current I1b)
    --- I1a3 (Z17925, current I1c)

    Obviously we don't know the chronology of the 312 SNPs that define modern I1 and this tree above is purely hypothetical, so this is all subject to change.
    Last edited by spruithean; 06-14-2019 at 08:58 PM. Reason: Added details

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  4. #343
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    Hi folks - I was out for a while as there were some issues with Anthrogenica forum blocking my IP address - all sorted out now thanks to admin DMXX.

    I've had a bit more of a look at the two samples from the Sigtuna paper that may be I1 but weren't assigned any Y-DNA haplogroup in the paper. Gone through 100 of the I1 SNPs and urm035 is positive for 18 of those SNPs and urm045 is positive for 9 of those SNPs. All one read given the low depth coverage of theses samples. Both of these samples also have one ancestral read each. I don't think these ancestral reads are real - I think they are false negatives - perils of law read depth. But I'm happy to put these samples as I1 given the number of corrobotating positive reads for these SNPs - already outscoring the RISE samples from the Allentoft paper. I'll add them to the map once I've gone through those. I'll also have a look for subclades but I have a feeling I'll be lucky to find much more than we have at I-DF29 for urm035 and I-Z60 for urm045.

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  6. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Hi folks - I was out for a while as there were some issues with Anthrogenica forum blocking my IP address - all sorted out now thanks to admin DMXX.

    I've had a bit more of a look at the two samples from the Sigtuna paper that may be I1 but weren't assigned any Y-DNA haplogroup in the paper. Gone through 100 of the I1 SNPs and urm035 is positive for 18 of those SNPs and urm045 is positive for 9 of those SNPs. All one read given the low depth coverage of theses samples. Both of these samples also have one ancestral read each. I don't think these ancestral reads are real - I think they are false negatives - perils of law read depth. But I'm happy to put these samples as I1 given the number of corrobotating positive reads for these SNPs - already outscoring the RISE samples from the Allentoft paper. I'll add them to the map once I've gone through those. I'll also have a look for subclades but I have a feeling I'll be lucky to find much more than we have at I-DF29 for urm035 and I-Z60 for urm045.
    Interesting that urm045 appears to be I-Z60, too bad about the low reads though, maybe at some point we'll hit a real treasure trove of ancient I1.

  7. #345
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    So it looks like the big Viking aDNA study we've been waiting for is wrapping up and should be published this year. Let's hope for plenty of I1.

    https://lists.rootsweb.com/hyperkitt...read/35472249/
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R-L21 L371

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  9. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    So it looks like the big Viking aDNA study we've been waiting for is wrapping up and should be published this year. Let's hope for plenty of I1.

    https://lists.rootsweb.com/hyperkitt...read/35472249/
    Speaking of I1 and Vikings - any additional info on sample Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4?) - Sķlastašir in Eyjafjaršarsżsla, North Iceland - as he is my maternal kinsman being T2b2b like I am - and I am pretty sure he is grave 4 with the male buried with the horse etc as grave 3 was the female (an earlier archaeological paper on that site listed grave 3 as a female with typical grave goods and grave 4 as a male with typical male grave goods/weapons and horse skeleton - I think they mixed them up in the paper as far as labeling)... they only have him listed as I1 in the paper for his Y-DNA group. I have an interest in him since he seems to be half Norse/half Gaelic in his autosomal ancestry and my MDKA on my maternal line was probably from around Limerick or SW Ireland or even SE where Vikings were active in this guy's period 10 - 11th cent... typology date being 850-1000 and a carbon date for SSG-A1 being 980-1020 AD. Figured this would be the place to ask my I1 cousin kinsmen (since you guys tend to tag along with U106 or the other way around hah!).

    Cheers,
    Charlie
    Last edited by Bollox79; 07-10-2019 at 09:20 PM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4?) - Sķlastašir in Eyjafjaršarsżsla, North Iceland is T2b2b. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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  11. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    Speaking of I1 and Vikings - any additional info on sample Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4?) - Sķlastašir in Eyjafjaršarsżsla, North Iceland - as he is my maternal kinsman being T2b2b like I am - and I am pretty sure he is grave 4 with the male buried with the horse etc as grave 3 was the female (an earlier archaeological paper on that site listed grave 3 as a female with typical grave goods and grave 4 as a male with typical male grave goods/weapons and horse skeleton - I think they mixed them up in the paper as far as labeling)... they only have him listed as I1 in the paper for his Y-DNA group. I have an interest in him since he seems to be half Norse/half Gaelic in his autosomal ancestry and my MDKA on my maternal line was probably from around Limerick or SW Ireland or even SE where Vikings were active in this guy's period 10 - 11th cent... typology date being 850-1000 and a carbon date for SSG-A1 being 980-1020 AD. Figured this would be the place to ask my I1 cousin kinsmen (since you guys tend to tag along with U106 or the other way around hah!).

    Cheers,
    Charlie
    Hi Charlie - I analyzed the BAM file for SSG-A3 a while ago when going through the I1 samples from the Ebenesersdóttir et al. Science 2018 paper. The coverage wasn't great, which lead to a lot of no calls and low read depth calls (all were only one or two reads). I tenatively put him at branch I-CTS6868. My SNPcalls from the BAM:

    Derived SNPs: Z2892 1G, CTS6868 1C
    Ancestral SNPs: L205 2A, Y44733 2C, Y196701G, Y13504 4T, Y18232 1T, Y36967 1C
    No call SNPs; DF29, CTS9857, Z2891, Z2890, Z2893, Z2336, Y2592, Y2593, Z2337, S6346, L22, Y3549, Z2338, P109, Y3669, S7660, S11056, Y12927, Z74, Z75, CTS1793, L813, Z718, CTS9346, Z720, FGC9478, Y5153, Y5154, Y30806, Y36072, Y15505, Y18927, Y5476, Y7659, Y5483, Y23527, Y15038, Y19207, Y13038, Y13039, Y8943, Y17927, Y18234, Y18229, Y19728, Z58, Z59, Z60, Z140

    I had in my notes that the paper described SSG-A2 and SSG-A3 as Pre-Christian migrants - said they had a lower 87Sr/86Sr isotope ratio than the Gaelic SSG-A4migrant, but the 87Sr/86Sr isotope ratio was considered too high for a childhood solely in Iceland. Notably, SSG-A3 is estimated to be an equal mix of Norse and Gaelic, indicating that some admixture occurred before arrival in Iceland, perhaps in Viking settlements in Scotland or Ireland.

    I started keeping track of all of the ancient I1 samples (since there are not very many of them) in a Google Map which you can find here if you're interested in any of the other I1 samples: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...4350000038&z=3
    Last edited by deadly77; 07-10-2019 at 10:00 PM. Reason: Added link to Google Map

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  13. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Hi Charlie - I analyzed the BAM file for SSG-A3 a while ago when going through the I1 samples from the Ebenesersdóttir et al. Science 2018 paper. The coverage wasn't great, which lead to a lot of no calls and low read depth calls (all were only one or two reads). I tenatively put him at branch I-CTS6868. My SNPcalls from the BAM:

    Derived SNPs: Z2892 1G, CTS6868 1C
    Ancestral SNPs: L205 2A, Y44733 2C, Y196701G, Y13504 4T, Y18232 1T, Y36967 1C
    No call SNPs; DF29, CTS9857, Z2891, Z2890, Z2893, Z2336, Y2592, Y2593, Z2337, S6346, L22, Y3549, Z2338, P109, Y3669, S7660, S11056, Y12927, Z74, Z75, CTS1793, L813, Z718, CTS9346, Z720, FGC9478, Y5153, Y5154, Y30806, Y36072, Y15505, Y18927, Y5476, Y7659, Y5483, Y23527, Y15038, Y19207, Y13038, Y13039, Y8943, Y17927, Y18234, Y18229, Y19728, Z58, Z59, Z60, Z140

    I had in my notes that the paper described SSG-A2 and SSG-A3 as Pre-Christian migrants - said they had a lower 87Sr/86Sr isotope ratio than the Gaelic SSG-A4migrant, but the 87Sr/86Sr isotope ratio was considered too high for a childhood solely in Iceland. Notably, SSG-A3 is estimated to be an equal mix of Norse and Gaelic, indicating that some admixture occurred before arrival in Iceland, perhaps in Viking settlements in Scotland or Ireland.

    I started keeping track of all of the ancient I1 samples (since there are not very many of them) in a Google Map which you can find here if you're interested in any of the other I1 samples: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...4350000038&z=3
    Cheers and thanks for the response Deadly77!!! Good to have someone tracking the I1 guys ;-)... and thanks for the info on my maternal kinsman ;-). I know there is a noticeable trend in the T2b2b group of MDKAs from either Ireland, Scotland and Isles and Scandinavia so sure looks "Vikingish"... I did a bit of an overview on my facebook page for friends and family members about him... and he had a type of Peterson sword - if that is anything to go by - was found in the Isle of Islay and also near Limerick where the Viking settlement was there - certainly it appears to be a connection between Ireland/Scotland i.e. the Western parts and also Viking activity perhaps - additionally there is an MDKA Doyle female in the T2b2b group and that is supposed to denote dark stranger etc - though I tend not to read TOO much into surnames...

    Also can you give me an idea of the county of origins for kits positive for CTS6868? I know there is the I1 y-dna project, but you have to be a member to view results etc - trying to get an idea of the spread of CTS6868!
    Last edited by Bollox79; 07-10-2019 at 10:21 PM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4?) - Sķlastašir in Eyjafjaršarsżsla, North Iceland is T2b2b. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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  15. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    Cheers and thanks for the response Deadly77!!! Good to have someone tracking the I1 guys ;-)... and thanks for the info on my maternal kinsman ;-). I know there is a noticeable trend in the T2b2b group of MDKAs from either Ireland, Scotland and Isles and Scandinavia so sure looks "Vikingish"... I did a bit of an overview on my facebook page for friends and family members about him... and he had a type of Peterson sword - if that is anything to go by - was found in the Isle of Islay and also near Limerick where the Viking settlement was there - certainly it appears to be a connection between Ireland/Scotland i.e. the Western parts and also Viking activity perhaps - additionally there is an MDKA Doyle female in the T2b2b group and that is supposed to denote dark stranger etc - though I tend not to read TOO much into surnames...

    Also can you give me an idea of the county of origins for kits positive for CTS6868? I know there is the I1 y-dna project, but you have to be a member to view results etc - trying to get an idea of the spread of CTS6868!
    Actually, even being a member of the main I1 Y-DNA project at FTDNA is no guarantee of being able to view any of the results on the project pages. The DNA results pages load so slowly that they often time out with the "Houston, we have a problem message" and to be honest, it's got to the point where I haven't looked at them for months because the experience is rather frustrating. So you're not actually missing much. Quite a few of the subclades of I1 have their own projects which are a lot more manageable.

    However, there are a couple of public data sources that you can check out without needing to be a member which should give you a good enough idea of the geographic spread of modern I-CTS6868. Try the I-CTS6868 tree at YFull here https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS6868/ and the FTDNA public haplotree here https://www.familytreedna.com/public...name=I-CTS6868 - if you click on the three vertical dots on the right hand side of the page in line with I-CTS6868 it will bring up a pop up window for "Country Report" - click that and a different pop up will come up with statistics for countries.

    As you can see, I-CTS6868 is a very large subclade of I1. Sorry but the low coverage of SSG-A3 didn't allow anything more defined than than in terms of downstream SNPs. As you can see from YFull tree and FTDNA public haplotree, it's largely focused on Northern Scandinavia (Finland, Sweden, Norway) with a smattering from the other countries where I1 normally found. But largely on the Northern end of the I1 distribution.

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  17. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Actually, even being a member of the main I1 Y-DNA project at FTDNA is no guarantee of being able to view any of the results on the project pages. The DNA results pages load so slowly that they often time out with the "Houston, we have a problem message" and to be honest, it's got to the point where I haven't looked at them for months because the experience is rather frustrating. So you're not actually missing much. Quite a few of the subclades of I1 have their own projects which are a lot more manageable.

    However, there are a couple of public data sources that you can check out without needing to be a member which should give you a good enough idea of the geographic spread of modern I-CTS6868. Try the I-CTS6868 tree at YFull here https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS6868/ and the FTDNA public haplotree here https://www.familytreedna.com/public...name=I-CTS6868 - if you click on the three vertical dots on the right hand side of the page in line with I-CTS6868 it will bring up a pop up window for "Country Report" - click that and a different pop up will come up with statistics for countries.

    As you can see, I-CTS6868 is a very large subclade of I1. Sorry but the low coverage of SSG-A3 didn't allow anything more defined than than in terms of downstream SNPs. As you can see from YFull tree and FTDNA public haplotree, it's largely focused on Northern Scandinavia (Finland, Sweden, Norway) with a smattering from the other countries where I1 normally found. But largely on the Northern end of the I1 distribution.
    Deadly thanks again! Ok so likely Northern in his Y-DNA which makes sense etc... I know what you mean with the "Houston, we have a problem" as I get that trying to view the U106 project of which I am a member - I can get around that by viewing it under colorized charts instead and just increasing the page size - maybe you can try that with the I1 project? Classic chart never seems to work - times out as you said... the Scando MKDAs for the T2b2b kits are from Norway and Sweden. I still need to get my full mtDNA done at FTDNA though... see exactly where I fall. I got the T2b2b result from when I first tested with National Genographic etc!
    Last edited by Bollox79; 07-10-2019 at 11:16 PM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4?) - Sķlastašir in Eyjafjaršarsżsla, North Iceland is T2b2b. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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