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Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

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    Quote Originally Posted by oz View Post
    Vk157 might've been this dude, or some kind of connection to it:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sviatopolk_I_of_Kiev
    From the Wikipedia-article: "The I-S2077 subclade of Y-DNA haplogroup I-Z63 was sampled on an elite warrior buried in Bodzia (Poland) in a rich burial from ca. 1010-1020 AD. All artefacts there indicate a strong relation to the Kievian Rus ruling elite, so this man who probably succumbed to combat wounds, was in a close relationship with Svyatopolk. The cemetery in Bodzia is exceptional in terms of Scandinavian and Kievian Rus links. The Bodzia man (sample VK157, or burial E864/I) was not a simple warrior from the princely retinue, but he belonged to the princely family himself. His burial is the richest one in the whole cemetery, moreover, Strontium analysis of his teeth enamel shows he was not local. It is assumed that he came to Poland with Svyatopolk, and met a violent death in combat. This corresponds to the events of 1018 AD when Sviatopolk himself disappeared after having retreated from Kiev to Poland. It cannot be excluded that the Bodzia man was Sviatopolk himself."

    That is very speculative. It is more likely that the same process happened in Russia and in Poland: The founding of a new state, initiated by a Viking aristocracy. In both countries this idea is not very popular - however, we have more evidence in case of Russia. But there is also some indication that the first Polish rulers, the Piasts, were of Viking origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaltmeister View Post
    From the Wikipedia-article: "The I-S2077 subclade of Y-DNA haplogroup I-Z63 was sampled on an elite warrior buried in Bodzia (Poland) in a rich burial from ca. 1010-1020 AD. All artefacts there indicate a strong relation to the Kievian Rus ruling elite, so this man who probably succumbed to combat wounds, was in a close relationship with Svyatopolk. The cemetery in Bodzia is exceptional in terms of Scandinavian and Kievian Rus links. The Bodzia man (sample VK157, or burial E864/I) was not a simple warrior from the princely retinue, but he belonged to the princely family himself. His burial is the richest one in the whole cemetery, moreover, Strontium analysis of his teeth enamel shows he was not local. It is assumed that he came to Poland with Svyatopolk, and met a violent death in combat. This corresponds to the events of 1018 AD when Sviatopolk himself disappeared after having retreated from Kiev to Poland. It cannot be excluded that the Bodzia man was Sviatopolk himself."

    That is very speculative. It is more likely that the same process happened in Russia and in Poland: The founding of a new state, initiated by a Viking aristocracy. In both countries this idea is not very popular - however, we have more evidence in case of Russia. But there is also some indication that the first Polish rulers, the Piasts, were of Viking origin.
    What's speculative? That VK157 was the Sviatopolk guy? Probably not. His nickname was "the accursed" and he allegedly might have murdered his own brothers.

    And his autosomal profile as far as I'm able to tell isn't Scandinavian or NW Euro, it's NE Euro.

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    If we have the same development in Russia and Poland: Conquest and state-building by Vikings - it is not unlikely that the ruling families in both areas were genetically connected. If the genetical profile of VK157 is NE-Euro, then because these Vikings and their children took wifes from the local population.
    I don't say this person is not Sviatopolk, but that assumption is at least speculative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaltmeister View Post
    If we have the same development in Russia and Poland: Conquest and state-building by Vikings - it is not unlikely that the ruling families in both areas were genetically connected. If the genetical profile of VK157 is NE-Euro, then because these Vikings and their children took wifes from the local population.
    I don't say this person is not Sviatopolk, but that assumption is at least speculative.
    The idea that Vikings founded Poland is highly speculative. It's more a working theory or even a trend among a certain group of historians than anything else.

    However, it's obvious that Vikings were present in Poland, probably as mercenaries, and many of them were probably Rus Vikings, so the eastern autosomal profiles of the samples from Poland fit with that.

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    Generalissiomo: You are correct, the idea that Vikings founded Poland is speculative as well. It is not popular in Poland, so there is little effort to find evidence for this thesis. Also, it is not the topic of this thread and needs to be discussed somewhere else. Just to round up the picture, here is an article from Rose, Kosieck: "Der große Wendig", chapter 124, collecting some arguments on that topic:


    It is quite likely that the first gender of Dukes and Kings in Poland , today called "Piasts", is Skandinavian and derives, like the founders of Russia (Rurik), from the region of Oslo. The first ruler beeing named in two documents of his time is called "Dago" or "Dogo", an exclusively Nordic name that never again turns up in Slavic countries. The Poles call him Miseko after his byname Mesico.
    The Skandinavian origin is also sure for several more Polish aristocratic genders, that came in the entourage of Dago when he was called into the land by the Polanes.
    The Daglinger, which should be the correct name of Dago's gender, had 5 German and Waraegian women until 1138 - and in the following time until 1335 children from 5 German and 2 not-German women, one of which belonged to the Bohemian gender of the Przemyslides. But the Przemyslides were most likely also Vikings. On the Hradschin, in the middle of the castle of the first Przmeslide Boleslaw I., Tschech archaeologists found a Viking grave of equal age.
    Dago-Miseko I. (963-993) married in first matrimony the old-German speaking Princess Dubrawka, Daughter of these Vikings from Prague, and after her death 977 Oda, the Daughter of the German prince Dietrich von der Nordmark. The Przemyslides had since Udalrich (1012-1033) exclusively German women. There was no middle-age dynasty outside the German Reich that had more kinship to the German emperor than the Daglinger.

    ---

    The genetic constellation of the Piasts, founders of Poland, is the topic of this DNA-project that will hopefully shed light on their origin:

    "Geneticists have taken DNA samples from the remains of over 30 members of the Piast dynasty to determine their ancestry."

    https://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/ne...LNVQ5avt-ZnXMQ
    Last edited by Kaltmeister; 10-01-2020 at 09:39 AM.

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    Hi deadly, I love the I1 map. Is there any reason the Polish study samples are excluded? KO_55 300 AD Kowolewko in the Wielbark. Also about 8 I1 samples in Markowice later, same study.

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    Guys, doesn't it look like it's very likely that VK157 is Sviatopolk I? The date and the princely burial all adds up. Wouldn't that imply that the original Rurikid paternal lineage isn't necessarily what it was previously thought to be? Obviously there is speculation involved here, but still.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sassoneg View Post
    Hi deadly, I love the I1 map. Is there any reason the Polish study samples are excluded? KO_55 300 AD Kowolewko in the Wielbark. Also about 8 I1 samples in Markowice later, same study.

    We've not seen any real information on that besides those brief outlines that were posted quite a while back, so without being able to look at the raw data and verify the I1 position they've been omitted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sassoneg View Post
    Hi deadly, I love the I1 map. Is there any reason the Polish study samples are excluded? KO_55 300 AD Kowolewko in the Wielbark. Also about 8 I1 samples in Markowice later, same study.
    Thanks - glad to hear that you love the I1 map and also good to see you back here for the first time in a while.

    It's basically as Spruithean says above - there's a real lack of reviewable data for me to verify which individual samples from that study are I1. All we have officially is the abstract from a poster presentation in 2017. While the abstract lists subclade data, it doesn't specify which samples are which subclade. The ENA has FASTQ files which I'm not sure how to read/process - others may be able to. I believe some of the specific assignments were made by some members of this forum by using one of the autoprocessing tools at a now defunct site to convert the FASTQ to a BAM and then use another tool from the same site to autoprocess the BAM file and assign haplogroup. I've tried to view the BAM files created by Felix's tool but they aren't viewable using IGV (which tells me that they may not be reliable).

    One of the problems that I have with such an approach is that people often cherry pick a downstream SNP without checking for phylogenetic inconsistencies - ancient DNA samples have a lot of one read SNPs which can lead to an assignment due to a false positive - this even happens in published papers - see SVK-A1 in the ancient Iceland paper which is assigned negative for DF29 due to a one-read false positive for Z131 but when you dig further in to BAM file he's consistent with I-FGC21682 (with several upstream SNPs to support this assignment.

    We've also seen to one of the samples on the Mittnik et al kinship analysis paper where one of the samples was assigned as I1 due to a one-read for L258, but the age didn't fit. Analysis of the BAM file showed this sample was negative for many upstream SNPs on the I1 level, so not I1. There's also a thread here https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post672272 by kolgeh where he's assigned several samples as I1 and I've been through the raw data and they aren't I1.

    I'm not saying that KO_55 - or other samples from the study - are not I1. But if I'm going to put them on the map, I need to have some way to verify that they're actually I1 by looking at the raw data or someone I trust saying the same. Right now I don't. I emailed the corresponding authors of the poster abstract and one of them replied "Yes we are planning to publish our results. Keep in mind that these results were from our preliminary research. Unfortunately I can't give access to the BAM files until they are published." But this was back in August 2019 and haven't seen anything since then.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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