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Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

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    Quote Originally Posted by oz View Post
    Vk157 might've been this dude, or some kind of connection to it:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sviatopolk_I_of_Kiev
    From the Wikipedia-article: "The I-S2077 subclade of Y-DNA haplogroup I-Z63 was sampled on an elite warrior buried in Bodzia (Poland) in a rich burial from ca. 1010-1020 AD. All artefacts there indicate a strong relation to the Kievian Rus ruling elite, so this man who probably succumbed to combat wounds, was in a close relationship with Svyatopolk. The cemetery in Bodzia is exceptional in terms of Scandinavian and Kievian Rus links. The Bodzia man (sample VK157, or burial E864/I) was not a simple warrior from the princely retinue, but he belonged to the princely family himself. His burial is the richest one in the whole cemetery, moreover, Strontium analysis of his teeth enamel shows he was not local. It is assumed that he came to Poland with Svyatopolk, and met a violent death in combat. This corresponds to the events of 1018 AD when Sviatopolk himself disappeared after having retreated from Kiev to Poland. It cannot be excluded that the Bodzia man was Sviatopolk himself."

    That is very speculative. It is more likely that the same process happened in Russia and in Poland: The founding of a new state, initiated by a Viking aristocracy. In both countries this idea is not very popular - however, we have more evidence in case of Russia. But there is also some indication that the first Polish rulers, the Piasts, were of Viking origin.

  2. #812
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaltmeister View Post
    From the Wikipedia-article: "The I-S2077 subclade of Y-DNA haplogroup I-Z63 was sampled on an elite warrior buried in Bodzia (Poland) in a rich burial from ca. 1010-1020 AD. All artefacts there indicate a strong relation to the Kievian Rus ruling elite, so this man who probably succumbed to combat wounds, was in a close relationship with Svyatopolk. The cemetery in Bodzia is exceptional in terms of Scandinavian and Kievian Rus links. The Bodzia man (sample VK157, or burial E864/I) was not a simple warrior from the princely retinue, but he belonged to the princely family himself. His burial is the richest one in the whole cemetery, moreover, Strontium analysis of his teeth enamel shows he was not local. It is assumed that he came to Poland with Svyatopolk, and met a violent death in combat. This corresponds to the events of 1018 AD when Sviatopolk himself disappeared after having retreated from Kiev to Poland. It cannot be excluded that the Bodzia man was Sviatopolk himself."

    That is very speculative. It is more likely that the same process happened in Russia and in Poland: The founding of a new state, initiated by a Viking aristocracy. In both countries this idea is not very popular - however, we have more evidence in case of Russia. But there is also some indication that the first Polish rulers, the Piasts, were of Viking origin.
    What's speculative? That VK157 was the Sviatopolk guy? Probably not. His nickname was "the accursed" and he allegedly might have murdered his own brothers.

    And his autosomal profile as far as I'm able to tell isn't Scandinavian or NW Euro, it's NE Euro.

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    If we have the same development in Russia and Poland: Conquest and state-building by Vikings - it is not unlikely that the ruling families in both areas were genetically connected. If the genetical profile of VK157 is NE-Euro, then because these Vikings and their children took wifes from the local population.
    I don't say this person is not Sviatopolk, but that assumption is at least speculative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaltmeister View Post
    If we have the same development in Russia and Poland: Conquest and state-building by Vikings - it is not unlikely that the ruling families in both areas were genetically connected. If the genetical profile of VK157 is NE-Euro, then because these Vikings and their children took wifes from the local population.
    I don't say this person is not Sviatopolk, but that assumption is at least speculative.
    The idea that Vikings founded Poland is highly speculative. It's more a working theory or even a trend among a certain group of historians than anything else.

    However, it's obvious that Vikings were present in Poland, probably as mercenaries, and many of them were probably Rus Vikings, so the eastern autosomal profiles of the samples from Poland fit with that.

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    Generalissiomo: You are correct, the idea that Vikings founded Poland is speculative as well. It is not popular in Poland, so there is little effort to find evidence for this thesis. Also, it is not the topic of this thread and needs to be discussed somewhere else. Just to round up the picture, here is an article from Rose, Kosieck: "Der große Wendig", chapter 124, collecting some arguments on that topic:


    It is quite likely that the first gender of Dukes and Kings in Poland , today called "Piasts", is Skandinavian and derives, like the founders of Russia (Rurik), from the region of Oslo. The first ruler beeing named in two documents of his time is called "Dago" or "Dogo", an exclusively Nordic name that never again turns up in Slavic countries. The Poles call him Miseko after his byname Mesico.
    The Skandinavian origin is also sure for several more Polish aristocratic genders, that came in the entourage of Dago when he was called into the land by the Polanes.
    The Daglinger, which should be the correct name of Dago's gender, had 5 German and Waraegian women until 1138 - and in the following time until 1335 children from 5 German and 2 not-German women, one of which belonged to the Bohemian gender of the Przemyslides. But the Przemyslides were most likely also Vikings. On the Hradschin, in the middle of the castle of the first Przmeslide Boleslaw I., Tschech archaeologists found a Viking grave of equal age.
    Dago-Miseko I. (963-993) married in first matrimony the old-German speaking Princess Dubrawka, Daughter of these Vikings from Prague, and after her death 977 Oda, the Daughter of the German prince Dietrich von der Nordmark. The Przemyslides had since Udalrich (1012-1033) exclusively German women. There was no middle-age dynasty outside the German Reich that had more kinship to the German emperor than the Daglinger.

    ---

    The genetic constellation of the Piasts, founders of Poland, is the topic of this DNA-project that will hopefully shed light on their origin:

    "Geneticists have taken DNA samples from the remains of over 30 members of the Piast dynasty to determine their ancestry."

    https://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/ne...LNVQ5avt-ZnXMQ
    Last edited by Kaltmeister; Today at 09:39 AM.

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