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Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

  1. #11
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    According to a thread in the ancient DNA section of this site, these three samples from the Bavaria 6th century elongated skulls paper were I1.
    AED249 I1 L840
    STR486 I1 L840
    STR241 I1 L840
    STR486 is the individual I mentioned at the start of this thread. L840 doesn't appear to be on the official tree unless I've missed it. But it's available on yseq as a SNP found in a P109 tester. That would make it L22+ and so may have arrived in Bavaria not long before after a long folk movement from the Vistula region or elsewhere in the north. But the presence of L22 in early medieval southern Germany would also seem to open the possibility that these people had arrived in the region earlier. If so, their population group may even account for some L22 in Britain, and so predating the Vikings. This could have been via a route down the Rhine and across with the Anglo-Saxon migrations (as southern German Pottery finds at the Sancton cemetery, for example, attest) or perhaps even earlier via the settlements of "laeti" (settlers with military obligations) from Germania under the Romans. For example Fraomar and his Alemmanic "numerus", which was settled somewhere in Britannia in 372. Alongside laeti, we know that veterans of every stripe from legionaries to barbarian auxiliaries often married local women during service abroad and never returned home.
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    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
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    According to YFull and ISOGG L840 is within the 300 something SNPs associated with I-M253.

    EDIT: According to my Big Y results I am positive for L840 and I am Z140+. Though it is apparently not on the Haplotree. Ybrowse position is chrY:18,672,817..18,672,817
    Last edited by spruithean; 03-27-2018 at 02:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    According to YFull and ISOGG L840 is within the 300 something SNPs associated with I-M253.

    EDIT: According to my Big Y results I am positive for L840 and I am Z140+. Though it is apparently not on the Haplotree. Ybrowse position is chrY:18,672,817..18,672,817
    Ah, great! Scratch my L22 idea then... Wonder if someone will try to get more subclades.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
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    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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    According to YFull's analysis of my Full Genomes test, I am positive at I1 and also for the I1 equivalent SNPs of M253 and L840. YFull estimates the age of these mutations as 4415 ybp. M253 and L840 are rated 5 star by YFull.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    According to a thread in the ancient DNA section of this site, these three samples from the Bavaria 6th century elongated skulls paper were I1.
    AED249 I1 L840
    STR486 I1 L840
    STR241 I1 L840
    STR486 is the individual I mentioned at the start of this thread. L840 doesn't appear to be on the official tree unless I've missed it. But it's available on yseq as a SNP found in a P109 tester. That would make it L22+ and so may have arrived in Bavaria not long before after a long folk movement from the Vistula region or elsewhere in the north. But the presence of L22 in early medieval southern Germany would also seem to open the possibility that these people had arrived in the region earlier. If so, their population group may even account for some L22 in Britain, and so predating the Vikings. This could have been via a route down the Rhine and across with the Anglo-Saxon migrations (as southern German Pottery finds at the Sancton cemetery, for example, attest) or perhaps even earlier via the settlements of "laeti" (settlers with military obligations) from Germania under the Romans. For example Fraomar and his Alemmanic "numerus", which was settled somewhere in Britannia in 372. Alongside laeti, we know that veterans of every stripe from legionaries to barbarian auxiliaries often married local women during service abroad and never returned home.
    one needs to clarify where they came from , if it was the Oder river area, then they where Lombards, if the came from lower vistula region then they where Goths


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

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    I just looked for the SZ45 information in the 2018 Amorim et al paper, but I could not find anything showing a SZ mutation path leading to L22. Maybe I missed it? Or was the information from another source?

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    I believe the information is coming from raw BAM files for these aDNA individuals. At least that's what I'm gathering from reading other threads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    I believe the information is coming from raw BAM files for these aDNA individuals. At least that's what I'm gathering from reading other threads.
    That's correct, apart from STR486 mentioned at the start of this thread, which is confirmed. I read on another site on the day the paper was posted that one of the finds was an elderly I1 male. This turns out to be STR486, aged 60+ and buried with a spatha and other gear.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    That's correct, apart from STR486 mentioned at the start of this thread, which is confirmed. I read on another site on the day the paper was posted that one of the finds was an elderly I1 male. This turns out to be STR486, aged 60+ and buried with a spatha and other gear.
    I have asked Alex Williamson to take a look at the samples from Collegno who were only reported to L151 or L52 who are kindred (Germanic Fara here - either agnatic line of descent or a band of brothers or men who traveled in a group with their associates - I think that is what we are seeing in these migration era cemeteries) who are kindred to CL84, a Northern European male who is U106+. These other four I asked Alex to look at if there are in fact BAM or Fastq files... are very Northern European and 1st generation/phase like CL84. I would like to know if they are also U106+.

    In addition to that I took a look at the I-M223 (the majority of the I haplogroups for the Szolad samples and the founding male/oldest male who was SZ13 correct?) and that group called ZS20 seems to be very Scandinavian with a presence in the Isles. Depending on the dating of the downstream SNPs under ZS20 - they may come from a Northern Germanic (well it's a certainly) population group who also got over to the Isles (depending on the dating of SNPs again) either with Romans or as Vikings? Or in the Anglo-Saxon period? I am not familiar with this group though or their SNP dating as I am with my own DF98 group etc. I think that these I-M223 samples in Szolad can give us a bit of info on the U106 guys who were buried near them etc and were as Northern European as them. We have to figure these guys were on the move... I'm positive they all probably came from Northern Germany and/or Scandinavia... it's just the particulars we have to figure out (with keeping the SNP dating in mind).

    Also there were some I haplogroup guys in the Munich paper... that you guys are discussing in this thread. At least two U106 samples ALH 1 (who is also DF96 brother group to DF98 Wettin) is Z156+ and also AED 106 is Z156+ because he is Z305 (which is downstream of Z156). These SNPs are not as common in Scandinavia as L48 and Z18... but all of these U106 guys from the Baiuvarii paper are very Northern European - placing autosomally with either Scandinavians, Northern Dutch, or Northern German in a K36 PCA. I'm trying to figure out if these Z156 guys around Munich (and keep in mind the Langobards were L48 and Z18 instead of Z156) came from the North and through the West aka Western Germanic groups while the Langobards were more North and then around the East after the collapse of the Hunnic Empire. We must keep in mind that the burials looked at around Munich are dated from 1st phase (both AED or Alternerding were 1st phase so max period 450 to about 500 AD) and one Straubing (STR 316) was 2nd phase so about 500-550 AD... and the Langobard cemetery at Szolad was 560s 570s AD for one generation I think... and the one at Collegno was 1st phase about 570s AD...

    P.S. Alex took a look at the U106 guys from around Munich and here is where we are at now:

    AED (Altenerding-Klettham cemetery) 106: U106+ (possibly based on BAM analysis kit run by several people and Yleaf for the Z305 result - update: 3 reads for U106 and one for Z305 per Alex W.) - Z381+, Z156+, Z305+)?: Male aged 60+. Grave goods included: spatha, belt, bag, vessel, glass. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 480 - 510 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA near Saxony and NE Germany. Phase 1 burial (mid 400s - early 500s AD). Number of grave goods: 10 per the paper “Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes.”

    AED (Altenerding-Klettham cemetery) 92: U106+ (per BAM analysis - update: 35 reads(!) for U106 per Alex W.): Male aged 20-30. Grave goods included: spatha, seax, lance, shield, belt, bag. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 480-510 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA very near Mecklenburg-Vorpommern in NE Germany (almost on top of it). Edit: Phase 1 burial (mid 400s - early 500s AD). Number of grave goods: 23 (the highest number of grave goods in this cemetery of the samples looked at in the paper Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes).

    ALH (Altheim cemetery) 1: U106+, (ALH 1 has now been found positive for the following SNPs by Alex Williamson: R-M269>U106/S21>Z2265> Z381/S263>S264/Z156>S265/Z304>DF96>FGC13326>S22047 ). Male aged 50-60+. Grave goods included: Grave was disturbed/robbed. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite: Undateable, but other graves ALH 2, 3, and 10 were carbon dated in the range of roughly 260-535 AD (using lowest and highest estimates). Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA in between Norway, Denmark, and Northern Netherlands/Friesland.

    STR (Straubing-Bajuwarenstra▀e cemetery) 316: U106+(based on BAM file analysis - update: 4 reads for U106 per Alex W.). Male aged 40-60. Grave goods included: belt, bag, vessel. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 480-510 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA between North Norway and Norwegians and somewhat near ALH 1. Phase 2 burial (1st half of 6th cent: 500-550 AD) and 7 grave goods per the paper “Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes.”

    STR (Straubing-Bajuwarenstra▀e cemetery) 393: U106+(based on BAM file analysis - update: 11 reads for U106 per Alex W.). Male aged 40-55. Grave goods included: spatha. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 460 – 530 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA near Central East Prussia. No info from paper “Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes.”

    Edit: The reason I mention the haplogroup I samples in addition to my U106 group samples... is that I think these groups were traveling in tandem or at least that appears for certain with the Langobards... and these groups could or would have come from similar areas? I don't think it's chance that they are all Northern European and buried with similar traditions and they were not kindred or related in some way..>! The different distributions of these different groups must mean something!!

    Additional edit: Many of the Munich U106ers were also looked at in this paper: Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes... and their isotopes and diet analysis were fairly normal - not outliers - for their local area. Per the elongated skull paper I think they look like they are migrants - i.e. they are very Northern European in their autosomal, but per their isotopes they look rather normal, average, and local for those cemeteries around Munich. I think we would find more diet and isotope outliers among the women with the elongated skulls. Does this mean that marriages with or perhaps even taking wives that were more Eastern... that these men buried around Munich had connections with the East... or did they come from a more Western or Northern with Northern Euro autosomal and settled in the area, but retained their Northern European autosomal character by not mixing much with locals, but became local per their isotope and diet? Some of the Germanic tribes had been near or on the Rhine since 200 or 300s AD... here I'm referencing an event or group like the Alamanni and their capture of the Agri Decumates in 260 AD. Why would these guys around Munich appear so Northern European per their autosomal, but local per their isotopes and diet?

    One more edit hah: The origins of the Baiuvarii - at least in the papers I've been reading and some in German that I had to translate - seem to think that the origin of the Baiuvarii had several different tribes involved in eventually becoming a somewhat united tribe or group of people. This seems to be reflected in the burials around Munich - that the early 1st phase grave goods have more hand-made and individual characteristics (like different tribes living near each other) and the later phases start to have a more common, mass produced character in their grave goods ;-).
    Last edited by Bollox79; 04-30-2018 at 12:26 AM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4?) - SÝlasta­ir in Eyjafjar­arsřsla, North Iceland is T2b2b. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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    Here is a list of the Haplogroup I1 samples in the recent Iceland Study.

    SBT-A1 Medieval Iceland, I1a2a1a2-F2642 ~75% Gaelic, ~25% Norse
    SVK-A1 Medieval Iceland, I1b-Z131 ~100% Norse
    SSG-A3 Medieval Iceland, I1-M253 ~50% Norse, ~50% Gaelic
    HSJ-A1 Medieval Iceland, I1a1b3b-L813 ~60% Norse, ~20% Gaelic
    SSJ-A2 Medieval Iceland, I1a1b3-Z74 ~90% Norse ~10% Gaelic
    DAV-A9 Medieval Iceland, I1-M253 ~100% Norse

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