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Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

  1. #191
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    Wow, even if it's not DF29 positive or even confidently M253, this is still exciting. It's like finding a unicorn for ancient Dna especially when it's really ancient.

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  3. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username View Post
    Wow, even if it's not DF29 positive or even confidently M253, this is still exciting. It's like finding a unicorn for ancient Dna especially when it's really ancient.
    I wasn't expecting the I1 designation until I read it in the paper. Was expecting to debunk this as another misreported I1, but there's actually a reasonable amount of data in this sample despite the age and that it's a SNP capture. I still think it's better called pre-I1 or I* than I1, but this is definitely worth looking at. Looks like more information in this sample than any of the RISE samples from Allentoft 2015 or SF11.

    Current count in the big I1 block is 12 derived, 16 ancestral out of 200 SNPs looked at so far.

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  5. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Yep, the age of BAL051 listed in the supplementary data as 11095195; 10195255 for lab radiocarbon date, 11,384–10,733; 10,681–9,263 Cal BCE (2σ), 13,380–12,660; 12,830–10,990 Cal BP (2σ) which would put it a bit before the TMRCA of modern I1.

    At 100 SNPs, 4 derived, 11 ancestral so far.
    Thanks for that analysis. So possibly more distant in time from the I1 source than we are. Or am I mistaken? All very interesting and I look forward to more insights.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  7. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Thanks for that analysis. So possibly more distant in time from the I1 source than we are. Or am I mistaken? All very interesting and I look forward to more insights.
    I'd say so - given that he's ancestral for quite a few of the I1 SNPs, he could be a bridge on the way from I whose descendants had those SNPs mutate from ancestral to derived in line with I1 or he could be a representative of a dead lineage that isn't an ancestor of modern I1. Difficult to say - still a lot of gaps in the coverage and quite a few one read results (like a lot of ancient samples) although BAL051 has a few in the 2-4 read range. If he was dated after the TMRCA of modern I1 or had SNPs that aren't part of modern I1, easier to call as dead lineage. But where he is dated right now, more difficult to say. A higher call rate on the I1 SNPs, may have been able to apply the YFull age estimate and see if it matched the calibrated radiocarbon dates - unfortunately not enough to make that call.

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  9. #195
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    Yeah and it's in Iberia of all places. I appreciate that someone like you is here to investigate and explain the I1 stuff. Otherwise me being a layman with this technology I wouldn't know what to make of reports like this, I'd just assume and wonder about all kinds of things without any concrete knowledge and conclusion. So kudos to you!

    My guess would also be that it's some kind of pre-M253 or just M253 (I1). Otherwise they'd probably label it as I1a or something downstream. Hopefully you'll be able to answer if it's pre-I1 or I1.

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  11. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username View Post
    Yeah and it's in Iberia of all places. I appreciate that someone like you is here to investigate and explain the I1 stuff. Otherwise me being a layman with this technology I wouldn't know what to make of reports like this, I'd just assume and wonder about all kinds of things without any concrete knowledge and conclusion. So kudos to you!

    My guess would also be that it's some kind of pre-M253 or just M253 (I1). Otherwise they'd probably label it as I1a or something downstream. Hopefully you'll be able to answer if it's pre-I1 or I1.
    Every ancient sample that has even one ancestral SNP in I1 block should be technically called pre-I1. Proper I1 should be derived for all SNPs in the I1 block, at least for those that have been covered. So this guy is pre-I1, and definitely represents a dead lineage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Username View Post
    Yeah and it's in Iberia of all places. I appreciate that someone like you is here to investigate and explain the I1 stuff. Otherwise me being a layman with this technology I wouldn't know what to make of reports like this, I'd just assume and wonder about all kinds of things without any concrete knowledge and conclusion. So kudos to you!

    My guess would also be that it's some kind of pre-M253 or just M253 (I1). Otherwise they'd probably label it as I1a or something downstream. Hopefully you'll be able to answer if it's pre-I1 or I1.
    Cheers.

    I'm already labeling BAL051 as pre-I1 before the analysis is complete - on the calls so far he'd break up the block of the >300 SNPs that define I1 and he's before the bottleneck that all modern I1 are descended from (at least those that have been tested so far) . Not sure where M253 itself as an individual SNP would fit in a revised phylogenetic tree as BAL051 is no call/not read for M253 itself. M253 is just one of over 300 SNPs defining I1.

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  15. #198
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    Okay, I've been through 311 SNPs that are in the big I1 block - BAL051 has reads for 33 of these SNPs, so there is a lot of no calls where the position has no reading. Some of that is going to be down to the methodology of the test (the 1240K SNP Capture) and some of it may be due to the age of the sample - it's older than any of the other ones we've discussed in this thread. However, those 33 SNPs (10.6% of the 311 I1 SNPs) have more read SNPs in BAL051 individually than the four RISE samples from Allentoft 2015 combined.

    Derived calls for 13 SNPs: Z2699/FGC2430 (2C), Z2751/L841/YSC0000257, Z2885, Z2887, CTS7751/Z2813, Z2812/CTS7652, Z2860, L124/S64, CTS4532/Z2777, Z2724/V1771 (2G), FGC2441 (2G), CTS10140/Z2837.
    Ancestral calls for 20 SNPs: Z2886, Z2679/CTS136, Z2727, Z2850, Y1962 (4T), P40, Z2747, FGC2422/Z2715, CTS3506/Z2765, FGC33327, CTS11534/Z2871, Y1863/S107/FGC2426, L848/Z2877 /YSC0000299 (2C), FGC2433, Y1950, FGC2427/Z2713, Y1932/S2007, Z2870/CTS11526, S22865/Z2845, Z2806/CTS6765.
    All above one read unless otherwise noted.

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  17. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    Every ancient sample that has even one ancestral SNP in I1 block should be technically called pre-I1. Proper I1 should be derived for all SNPs in the I1 block, at least for those that have been covered. So this guy is pre-I1, and definitely represents a dead lineage.
    Cool avatar Raiden Tesla nice!
    But how do you know for sure that it's definitely a dead lineage. Isn't it possible hypothetically that some of those I* people could be direct living descendants?

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  19. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    Every ancient sample that has even one ancestral SNP in I1 block should be technically called pre-I1. Proper I1 should be derived for all SNPs in the I1 block, at least for those that have been covered. So this guy is pre-I1, and definitely represents a dead lineage.
    Although this far west is interesting. It might lend support that a survivor moved into the north and succeeded to a culture like Ahrensburg and later to something like TRB.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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