Page 41 of 83 FirstFirst ... 31394041424351 ... LastLast
Results 401 to 410 of 828

Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

  1. #401
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    795
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Ethnicity
    European
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-L338
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c1

    United Kingdom Northumberland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    I've actually been thinking, remembering that Leslie et al concluded a considerable amount of Anglo-Saxon ancestry in Britain, yet this Viking paper concludes a fair amount of Danish-like admixture that can't be distinguished from Anglo-Saxon (due to the same population sources - just different time periods), is it not time to perhaps have a reassessment of the percentages estimated by Leslie et al for the overall Anglo-Saxon ancestry of Britain? I'm betting a fair bit of it is probably Danish in origin. But perhaps it may be too difficult to make any new estimations considering differentiating Anglo-Saxon from Dane is so far not possible...

    Just rambling, still going over this paper and certainly learning quite a fair bit.
    Yes - I remember that the " no clear genetic evidence of the Danish Viking occupation and control of a large part of England" in the Leslie paper was challenged a couple of years ago by Kershaw and Røyrvik https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...EAEC826BEDBC63for a lot of the same reasons - they came from similar start points geographically and there's not a lot of difference in the time that they came to Britain (on a genealogy time scale). There was a discussion here as well: http://sciencenordic.com/new-study-r...ements-england

    I haven't really gone through the autosomal DNA aspects of the new preprint yet - there's a lot to get through in this study.

  2. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to deadly77 For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (07-21-2019),  JonikW (07-21-2019),  mwauthy (07-21-2019),  slievenamon (07-21-2019),  spruithean (07-21-2019)

  3. #402
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,776
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    North Sea/Irish Sea
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1 Z140+ A21912+
    mtDNA (M)
    V
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b L21+ L371+
    mtDNA (P)
    J1c2l

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Yes - I remember that the " no clear genetic evidence of the Danish Viking occupation and control of a large part of England" in the Leslie paper was challenged a couple of years ago by Kershaw and Røyrvik https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...EAEC826BEDBC63for a lot of the same reasons - they came from similar start points geographically and there's not a lot of difference in the time that they came to Britain (on a genealogy time scale). There was a discussion here as well: http://sciencenordic.com/new-study-r...ements-england

    I haven't really gone through the autosomal DNA aspects of the new preprint yet - there's a lot to get through in this study.
    It's frustrating that so far we can't differentiate between the AS and slightly later Danish input. I just can't see how this could ever be resolved. It's also a crucial question on a personal level for me and my terminal SNP... Like spruithean I'd noticed the Danish contribution on the map in this study. It almost looks as if the hotspot visible in central England is more likely to in fact be a signal from the AS tribes, rather than the Danes, who settled mostly in the east and north.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     deadly77 (07-21-2019),  JMcB (07-21-2019),  mwauthy (07-21-2019)

  5. #403
    Registered Users
    Posts
    730

    Here are some quotes from the Viking Paper that I find to be interesting. VA is short for Viking Age.

    234: “Furthermore, gene flow within Scandinavia appears to be broadly northwards, dominated by Danish Vikings moving into what are now Norway and Sweden.”

    246: “Thus, the south-western part of Sweden in the VA is genetically more similar to Danish VA populations than the eastern regions of mainland Sweden.”

    255: “Denmark and Gotland in Sweden have the highest genetic diversity in the region, suggesting that these regions may have been centers of interaction and trade during this time.”

    269: “In conclusion, the results for Gotland and Öland agree with the archeological record, suggesting that Öland and Gotland were important trading posts from the Roman period onwards.”

    323: “Archeological findings and the written sources support the hypothesis that Viking back migrations and interaction between the newly settled areas and Scandinavia occurred as part of the process.”

    508: “Present-day Norwegians vary between 12 and 25% in their ‘British-like’ ancestry, whilst it is still (a more uniform) 10% in Sweden.”

    522 “However, we also see evidence of individuals with ancient Swedish and Finnish ancestry in the westernmost fringes of Europe, whilst Danish-like ancestry is also found in the east, defying our modern notions of historical groupings.”

    527: “Our observations all suggest that the different parts of Scandinavia were not as evenly connected, as has often been assumed...In fact, our data indicate that Viking Scandinavia consisted of a limited number of transport zones and maritime enclaves.”

    555: “Our findings also contradict the myth of the Vikings as peoples of pure local Scandinavian ancestry. In fact, we found many Viking Age individuals with high levels of foreign ancestry, both within and outside Scandinavia, suggesting ongoing gene flow with different peoples across Europe. Indeed it appears that some foreign peoples contributed more genetic ancestry to Scandinavia during this period than the Vikings contributed to them.”
    Last edited by mwauthy; 07-21-2019 at 06:36 PM. Reason: Error
    I-DF29: ool009 Skane, Sweden 1930-1750 BCE

    Z58, Z59, Z2041, Z2040, Z382, FGC24333

    S26361: VK532 Zealand, Denmark 200-375 CE

    S16414, FGC24354, FGC24357, FGC24356, S10350

    FGC75802/BY19383: VK446 Funen, Denmark 800-1050 CE

    Y125947, S21197, BY149414, BY188003, BY188570

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to mwauthy For This Useful Post:

     deadly77 (07-21-2019),  JMcB (07-21-2019),  JonikW (07-21-2019),  slievenamon (07-21-2019)

  7. #404
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,660
    Sex
    Location
    Florida, USA.
    Ethnicity
    English, Scottish & Irish
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-FT80854
    mtDNA (M)
    H1e2
    mtDNA (P)
    K1

    England Scotland Ireland Germany Bayern Italy Two Sicilies France
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    I've actually been thinking, remembering that Leslie et al concluded a considerable amount of Anglo-Saxon ancestry in Britain, yet this Viking paper concludes a fair amount of Danish-like admixture that can't be distinguished from Anglo-Saxon (due to the same population sources - just different time periods), is it not time to perhaps have a reassessment of the percentages estimated by Leslie et al for the overall Anglo-Saxon ancestry of Britain? I'm betting a fair bit of it is probably Danish in origin. But perhaps it may be too difficult to make any new estimations considering differentiating Anglo-Saxon from Dane is so far not possible...

    Just rambling, still going over this paper and certainly learning quite a fair bit.


    This is just my own humble opinion but I’ve always thought that a decent portion of what is usually reported as Anglo Saxon, should really be attributed to the Danish Vikings. Partly because of the inconsistencies found in the POBI study, which was later buttressed by Kershaw’s paper, and in my own opinion, common sense. Unfortunately, I don’t think they’re going to be able to untangle the genetic similarities for quite some time.
    Last edited by JMcB; 07-21-2019 at 06:45 PM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

  8. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to JMcB For This Useful Post:

     Aroon1916 (09-29-2019),  deadly77 (07-21-2019),  Finn (07-21-2019),  JonikW (07-21-2019),  Kaltmeister (07-21-2019),  mwauthy (07-21-2019),  slievenamon (07-21-2019)

  9. #405
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,610
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Nationality
    Canadian

    Canada Netherlands United Kingdom Cornwall Ireland France
    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Yes - I remember that the " no clear genetic evidence of the Danish Viking occupation and control of a large part of England" in the Leslie paper was challenged a couple of years ago by Kershaw and Røyrvik https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...EAEC826BEDBC63for a lot of the same reasons - they came from similar start points geographically and there's not a lot of difference in the time that they came to Britain (on a genealogy time scale). There was a discussion here as well: http://sciencenordic.com/new-study-r...ements-england
    I haven't really gone through the autosomal DNA aspects of the new preprint yet - there's a lot to get through in this study.
    Thanks for the links. This Viking paper is a monster, and I certainly haven't gotten through all of the text or supplementary info.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    It's frustrating that so far we can't differentiate between the AS and slightly later Danish input. I just can't see how this could ever be resolved. It's also a crucial question on a personal level for me and my terminal SNP... Like spruithean I'd noticed the Danish contribution on the map in this study. It almost looks as if the hotspot visible in central England is more likely to in fact be a signal from the AS tribes, rather than the Danes, who settled mostly in the east and north.
    It is frustrating for the same reasons you cite (terminal Y-SNP). I've thought there was an underestimation of Danish-like ancestry in the UK for awhile considering historical events.

    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    Here are some quotes from the Viking Paper that I find to be interesting. VA is short for Viking Age.

    234: “Furthermore, gene flow within Scandinavia appears to be broadly northwards, dominated by Danish Vikings moving into what are now Norway and Sweden.”

    246: “Thus, the south-western part of Sweden in the VA is genetically more similar to Danish VA populations than the eastern regions of mainland Sweden.”

    255: “Denmark and Gotland in Sweden have the highest genetic diversity in the region, suggesting that these regions may have been centers of interaction and trade during this time.”

    269: “In conclusion, the results for Gotland and Öland agree with the archeological record, suggesting that Öland and Gotland were important trading posts from the Roman period onwards.”

    323: “Archeological findings and the written sources support the hypothesis that Viking back migrations and interaction between the newly settled areas and Scandinavia occurred as part of the process.”

    508: “Present-day Norwegians vary between 12 and 25% in their ‘British-like’ ancestry, whilst it is still (a more uniform) 10% in Sweden.”

    522 “However, we also see evidence of individuals with ancient Swedish and Finnish ancestry in the westernmost fringes of Europe, whilst Danish-like ancestry is also found in the east, defying our modern notions of historical groupings.”

    527: “Our observations all suggest that the different parts of Scandinavia were not as evenly connected, as has often been assumed...In fact, our data indicate that Viking Scandinavia consisted of a limited number of transport zones and maritime enclaves.”

    555: “Our findings also contradict the myth of the Vikings as peoples of pure local Scandinavian ancestry. In fact, we found many Viking Age individuals with high levels of foreign ancestry, both within and outside Scandinavia, suggesting ongoing gene flow with different peoples across Europe. Indeed it appears that some foreign peoples contributed more genetic ancestry to Scandinavia during this period than the Vikings contributed to them.”
    Thanks for leaving the line numbers there, it makes looking for them in the text much easier. I think one of the most interesting pieces in this paper for me is that brief mention of Picts in Orkney adopting Scandinavian culture and going "Viking". It certainly wouldn't be farfetched for an Anglo-Saxon in England living under the Danelaw to go "Viking". The Last Kingdom and Uhtred of Bebbanburg anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    This is just my own humble opinion but I’ve always thought that a decent portion of what is usually reported as Anglo Saxon, should really be attributed to the Danish Vikings. Partly because of the inconsistencies found in the POBI study, which was later buttressed by Kershaw’s paper, and in my own opinion, common sense. Unfortunately, I don’t think they’re going to be able to untangle the genetic similarities for quite some time.
    Agreed. I think it's going to be difficult for a long time to try and differentiate Anglo-Saxons from Danish Vikings (and perhaps may remain so permanently). Perhaps one day some new process will work effectively as a fine-toothed comb and determine the differences (I wish).

    All of this reminds me of an old BBC program about the Vikings and they stated in the program that Anglo-Saxon and Danish were indistinguishable, that was several years ago now. not much has changed!

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to spruithean For This Useful Post:

     deadly77 (07-21-2019),  JMcB (07-21-2019),  JonikW (07-21-2019),  mwauthy (07-21-2019)

  11. #406
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,776
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    North Sea/Irish Sea
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1 Z140+ A21912+
    mtDNA (M)
    V
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b L21+ L371+
    mtDNA (P)
    J1c2l

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    Here are some quotes from the Viking Paper that I find to be interesting. VA is short for Viking Age.

    234: “Furthermore, gene flow within Scandinavia appears to be broadly northwards, dominated by Danish Vikings moving into what are now Norway and Sweden.”

    246: “Thus, the south-western part of Sweden in the VA is genetically more similar to Danish VA populations than the eastern regions of mainland Sweden.”

    255: “Denmark and Gotland in Sweden have the highest genetic diversity in the region, suggesting that these regions may have been centers of interaction and trade during this time.”

    269: “In conclusion, the results for Gotland and Öland agree with the archeological record, suggesting that Öland and Gotland were important trading posts from the Roman period onwards.”

    323: “Archeological findings and the written sources support the hypothesis that Viking back migrations and interaction between the newly settled areas and Scandinavia occurred as part of the process.”

    508: “Present-day Norwegians vary between 12 and 25% in their ‘British-like’ ancestry, whilst it is still (a more uniform) 10% in Sweden.”

    522 “However, we also see evidence of individuals with ancient Swedish and Finnish ancestry in the westernmost fringes of Europe, whilst Danish-like ancestry is also found in the east, defying our modern notions of historical groupings.”

    527: “Our observations all suggest that the different parts of Scandinavia were not as evenly connected, as has often been assumed...In fact, our data indicate that Viking Scandinavia consisted of a limited number of transport zones and maritime enclaves.”

    555: “Our findings also contradict the myth of the Vikings as peoples of pure local Scandinavian ancestry. In fact, we found many Viking Age individuals with high levels of foreign ancestry, both within and outside Scandinavia, suggesting ongoing gene flow with different peoples across Europe. Indeed it appears that some foreign peoples contributed more genetic ancestry to Scandinavia during this period than the Vikings contributed to them.”
    Does anyone know more about line 234 and the period it refers to? I can imagine this movement happening under Knut. But in the earlier Viking heyday when the dǫnsk tunga or Danish Tongue was still used everywhere it presumably also must have occurred to some extent. There's also evidence from Norway of slightly more southerly artefact styles being adopted in the Migration Period, for example cruciform brooches, a style probably best known from the Anglian settlement of England.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (07-21-2019),  mwauthy (07-21-2019),  Nibelung (07-21-2019)

  13. #407
    Registered Users
    Posts
    24
    Sex
    Location
    Duisburg
    Ethnicity
    I1
    Nationality
    German
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1-Z140
    mtDNA (M)
    N1

    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    Here are some quotes from the Viking Paper that I find to be interesting. VA is short for Viking Age.



    555: “Our findings also contradict the myth of the Vikings as peoples of pure local Scandinavian ancestry. In fact, we found many Viking Age individuals with high levels of foreign ancestry, both within and outside Scandinavia, suggesting ongoing gene flow with different peoples across Europe. Indeed it appears that some foreign peoples contributed more genetic ancestry to Scandinavia during this period than the Vikings contributed to them.”
    555 indicates in my opinion that people from continental Europe were shipped to Scandinavia to establish a working class. Otherwise we would have to assume a counter-offensive from the continent to the north that never happened. In this context it is meaningful that Vikings from Sweden headed to the Baltic area - and that Eastern ancestry is strong in Sweden, peaking in Gotland, initial point of so many Viking activities. We might find out that Norway and Denmark also have ancestry from areas they invaded.

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Kaltmeister For This Useful Post:

     JonikW (07-21-2019),  mwauthy (07-21-2019)

  15. #408
    Registered Users
    Posts
    730

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaltmeister View Post
    555 indicates in my opinion that people from continental Europe were shipped to Scandinavia to establish a working class. Otherwise we would have to assume a counter-offensive from the continent to the north that never happened. In this context it is meaningful that Vikings from Sweden headed to the Baltic area - and that Eastern ancestry is strong in Sweden, peaking in Gotland, initial point of so many Viking activities. We might find out that Norway and Denmark also have ancestry from areas they invaded.
    A theory of mine that needs many more samples from the Bronze Age and Early Iron Age to shed light is that the maritime areas of Scandinavia have had gene flow and continuous trade with the British Isles and North Sea and Baltic Sea coastal regions since the Bronze Age and maybe even prior. As a result, when studying subclade migrations through time or autosomal percentages its best to not discount completely backwards migrations.
    I-DF29: ool009 Skane, Sweden 1930-1750 BCE

    Z58, Z59, Z2041, Z2040, Z382, FGC24333

    S26361: VK532 Zealand, Denmark 200-375 CE

    S16414, FGC24354, FGC24357, FGC24356, S10350

    FGC75802/BY19383: VK446 Funen, Denmark 800-1050 CE

    Y125947, S21197, BY149414, BY188003, BY188570

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to mwauthy For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (07-21-2019),  JonikW (07-21-2019)

  17. #409
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,776
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    North Sea/Irish Sea
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1 Z140+ A21912+
    mtDNA (M)
    V
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b L21+ L371+
    mtDNA (P)
    J1c2l

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    A theory of mine that needs many more samples from the Bronze Age and Early Iron Age to shed light is that the maritime areas of Scandinavia have had gene flow and continuous trade with the British Isles and North Sea and Baltic Sea coastal regions since the Bronze Age and maybe even prior. As a result, when studying subclade migrations through time or autosomal percentages its best to not discount completely backwards migrations.
    I agree, thinking in particular of rock carvings, that there may have been some Bronze Age cross contact. I can't immediately think of any possible evidence in the Iron Age. Maybe someone else can.

    Edit: I'm referring to Scandinavian links with Britain rather than the wider Baltic, where I imagine this contact was more extensive.
    Last edited by JonikW; 07-21-2019 at 11:18 PM.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (07-21-2019),  mwauthy (07-22-2019)

  19. #410
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,636
    Sex
    Location
    Brittany
    Ethnicity
    NW European
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-L813 >Y36690
    mtDNA (M)
    H3s
    mtDNA (P)
    H3s

    Normandie France Bretagne
    4 of these samples are L813, 2 from Norway, 1 from Iceland and the last one from East Sweden
    Recent Ancestry, full Normand. Known Genealogy 7/8 of the Cotentin peninsula 1/8 region of Coutances. Unfortunately, there are many missing branches on the maternal side.

  20. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Helgenes50 For This Useful Post:

     Camulogène Rix (07-22-2019),  JMcB (07-22-2019),  JonikW (07-22-2019)

Page 41 of 83 FirstFirst ... 31394041424351 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. List of ancient samples on GEDmatch
    By Tomenable in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 503
    Last Post: 10-27-2020, 09:18 PM
  2. Replies: 37
    Last Post: 05-07-2018, 12:05 AM
  3. My current list of U106+ samples in aDNA samples
    By Bollox79 in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-23-2018, 12:51 AM
  4. My list of ancient European y-dna samples
    By venustas in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-14-2017, 05:19 AM
  5. Replies: 18
    Last Post: 05-01-2015, 11:26 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •