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Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

  1. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helgenes50 View Post
    4 of these samples are L813, 2 from Norway, 1 from Iceland and the last one from East Sweden
    Perhaps more as well. There's a few that have a designation that hasn't been well defined in the paper - eg. 29 just I1, 7 I-DF29, 4 I-Z2336, 5 I-Z2337, 1 I-Z74. Probably missed calls in the automated software capture. We'll have a better idea when we get access to the raw data in the form of BAM files.

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  3. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Thanks for leaving the line numbers there, it makes looking for them in the text much easier. I think one of the most interesting pieces in this paper for me is that brief mention of Picts in Orkney adopting Scandinavian culture and going "Viking". It certainly wouldn't be farfetched for an Anglo-Saxon in England living under the Danelaw to go "Viking". The Last Kingdom and Uhtred of Bebbanburg anyone?
    I rather enjoy that show - looking forward to the next series. I'm not so far along in the books - only the first two of those so far but I enjoy Cornwell's stuff. I also like how he puts a historical note at the end of the book - explains where some of the characters are genuine historical figures and which ones are fictional creations. Also with certain events, and how he may have moved time and place to fit a narrative or make it more plausible for the main characters to encounter.

    While it's a work of fiction, I do agree that it wouldn't be farfetchted at all and likely that such allegiances did happen. Pretty sure the Danes weren't picky about extra swords or spears if it helped them win a battle. Also the other way as well - there's an example in the second book where Uhtred captures a Dane and offers him the chance to serve with him on the Anglo-Saxon side.

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  5. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    This is just my own humble opinion but I’ve always thought that a decent portion of what is usually reported as Anglo Saxon, should really be attributed to the Danish Vikings. Partly because of the inconsistencies found in the POBI study, which was later buttressed by Kershaw’s paper, and in my own opinion, common sense. Unfortunately, I don’t think they’re going to be able to untangle the genetic similarities for quite some time.
    Yes, I agree this is probably the case and agree this is common sense. Thought so for a while.

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  7. #414
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    Just reading this, which has some nice observations and maps:
    https://indo-european.eu/2019/07/vik...ltic-iron-age/
    I'd missed the Roman Iron Age dating of Sealand VK532, who was Z59. From the paper itself: "Three inhumation graves were recovered. One, a female dated to Early Roman Iron Age (0-200AD),
    539 and the other two, a female and a male (x1718) dated to the Late Roman Iron Age (C2/C3) (200-
    540 375AD)."
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  9. #415
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    VK532 would be interesting to look for a deeper SNP read on, to see where on the Z59 tree he fits, autosomally VK532 is quite "Swedish-like", which I suppose makes sense.

    However I'm most intrigued by the I-Z140 samples from Öland and Denmark. Interestingly Öland is sometimes associated with the Aviones tribe who are recorded as Eowan in Old English works. The Aviones with several other tribes (Anglii, Reudigni, Nuithones, Eudoses, Varini, Suardones) were part of the same group that were allegedly a Nerthus worshipping cult.

    I feel like several I1 samples (downstream ones) are missing from the maps on that Indo-European blog.
    Last edited by spruithean; 07-22-2019 at 10:28 AM.

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  11. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    VK532 would be interesting to look for a deeper SNP read on, to see where on the Z59 tree he fits, autosomally VK532 is quite "Swedish-like", which I suppose makes sense.

    However I'm most intrigued by the I-Z140 samples from Öland and Denmark. Interestingly Öland is sometimes associated with the Aviones tribe who are recorded as Eowan in Old English works. The Aviones with several other tribes (Anglii, Reudigni, Nuithones, Eudoses, Varini, Suardones) were part of the same group that were allegedly a Nerthus worshipping cult.

    I feel like several I1 samples (downstream ones) are missing from the maps on that Indo-European blog.
    One of the guys in the I-Z140 group is Swedish and he says he has a summer house in Öland, where he is right now. He says the most important merchant port on Öland 700-1100 AD was Köpingsvik just 2 km south of his house, and sent me this link to an ongoing excavation in the south part of the island: https://www.sandbyborg.se/en/home/?f...tPwoow1007Ro7c

    Regarding the Indo-European blog map, it seems Carlos Quiles is still using the incorrect designations for subclades such as the Icelandic samples that we discussed earlier in this thread. Oh well.

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  13. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    One of the guys in the I-Z140 group is Swedish and he says he has a summer house in Öland, where he is right now. He says the most important merchant port on Öland 700-1100 AD was Köpingsvik just 2 km south of his house, and sent me this link to an ongoing excavation in the south part of the island: https://www.sandbyborg.se/en/home/?f...tPwoow1007Ro7c

    Regarding the Indo-European blog map, it seems Carlos Quiles is still using the incorrect designations for subclades such as the Icelandic samples that we discussed earlier in this thread. Oh well.
    Thanks for that link, that looks quite interesting.

    That's disappointing that he is still using the incorrect designations for those samples, hopefully in due time that will change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Thanks for that link, that looks quite interesting.

    That's disappointing that he is still using the incorrect designations for those samples, hopefully in due time that will change.
    He's also included a modern I1 individual on his "Y-DNA haplogroups in Europe during the Viking expansions" map, and he's got the subclade wrong on that sample as well.

    Click on the first map in the link that JonikW shared in #414 above, look towards Northern Finland where the Oulu is, there's a yellow triangle for I1a-Y18770.

    Not aware of any sample in that region from previous papers, I checked the recent preprint and couldn't find anything that matched up with that.

    Took me a little while to figure out what he's done. From the Ancient Fennoscandivian Genomes paper that came out in Nature Communications last year https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-07483-5 among the ancient samples in that paper, there's also a modern Saami individual - Saami001 - who is reported as I1a1b3a1.

    If you look up that on the 2019 ISOGG tree, closest would be I1a1b3a~ where one of the SNPs on that branch is Y18770, and YFull describes that branch as I-Y18770. Trouble is, the paper doesn't use the 2019 version of the ISOGG tree - reading the paper, they use the 2016 ISOGG tree - looking up I1a1b3a1 on that tree gets to I-L258, which makes a lot more sense.

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    I understand that the share of I1 in viking age Scandinavia was about the same as it is today. Which means that we at least know that the proliferation of I1 tok place at some earlier time.

    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    Here are some quotes from the Viking Paper that I find to be interesting. VA is short for Viking Age.

    234: “Furthermore, gene flow within Scandinavia appears to be broadly northwards, dominated by Danish Vikings moving into what are now Norway and Sweden.”

    246: “Thus, the south-western part of Sweden in the VA is genetically more similar to Danish VA populations than the eastern regions of mainland Sweden.”
    Well, the south-western part of Sweden was Danish until 1658... And the the sea united rather than parted during these times. So no surprise.

    255: “Denmark and Gotland in Sweden have the highest genetic diversity in the region, suggesting that these regions may have been centers of interaction and trade during this time.”

    269: “In conclusion, the results for Gotland and Öland agree with the archeological record, suggesting that Öland and Gotland were important trading posts from the Roman period onwards.”
    Yes, agrees with what we already know. Visby at Gotland actually became the richest town in the Baltic area during early medieval time. Before that many farmers — farmannabönder — engagerad in trading and became quite wealthy.

    323: “Archeological findings and the written sources support the hypothesis that Viking back migrations and interaction between the newly settled areas and Scandinavia occurred as part of the process.”
    Back migrations — slaves taken as war booty? Trying to keep up the bad reputation...

    527: “Our observations all suggest that the different parts of Scandinavia were not as evenly connected, as has often been assumed...In fact, our data indicate that Viking Scandinavia consisted of a limited number of transport zones and maritime enclaves.”
    Makes some sense. Even though the seas surrounding the Scandinavian countries unite, distances between centers are long. On the other hand, if connections were hard to sustain, howcome language, people and culture became uniform in the NBA?

    555: “Our findings also contradict the myth of the Vikings as peoples of pure local Scandinavian ancestry. In fact, we found many Viking Age individuals with high levels of foreign ancestry, both within and outside Scandinavia, suggesting ongoing gene flow with different peoples across Europe. Indeed it appears that some foreign peoples contributed more genetic ancestry to Scandinavia during this period than the Vikings contributed to them.”
    Straw man, PC BS.

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  19. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by janan View Post
    I understand that the share of I1 in viking age Scandinavia was about the same as it is today. Which means that we at least know that the proliferation of I1 tok place at some earlier time.


    Well, the south-western part of Sweden was Danish until 1658... And the the sea united rather than parted during these times. So no surprise.


    Yes, agrees with what we already know. Visby at Gotland actually became the richest town in the Baltic area during early medieval time. Before that many farmers — farmannabönder — engagerad in trading and became quite wealthy.


    Back migrations — slaves taken as war booty? Trying to keep up the bad reputation...


    Makes some sense. Even though the seas surrounding the Scandinavian countries unite, distances between centers are long. On the other hand, if connections were hard to sustain, howcome language, people and culture became uniform in the NBA?


    Straw man, PC BS.
    I agree with some of your points but among others not about back migration pointing to slaves. I was amused by their observation about a "limited number" of zones and enclaves. By definition that would apply to Scandinavia or any other defined land mass.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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