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Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

  1. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    I'd like it if it turns out to be legit. For the sake of diversity of the I1 progenitors, instead of all I1 having just one source of origin (North Sea, Scandinavian, Germanic). For example, maybe some of the I1 in the Balkans could be ancestors of those Etruscans, or it got to the Balkans later via the Romans, before the Goths and whatnot. History's mysteries run very deep and we're talking about things going back 5000 years ago (the approximate tmrca of I1) that's a looooong ass time for a lot of things and all kinds of migrations to happen. Adding more complexity to it only makes sense.

    Not that it helps in figuring out your own deep ancestry. I wish I could know exactly who my ancestors were but that's pretty much impossible.

  2. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by oz View Post
    I'd like it if it turns out to be legit. For the sake of diversity of the I1 progenitors, instead of all I1 having just one source of origin (North Sea, Scandinavian, Germanic). For example, maybe some of the I1 in the Balkans could be ancestors of those Etruscans, or it got to the Balkans later via the Romans, before the Goths and whatnot. History's mysteries run very deep and we're talking about things going back 5000 years ago (the approximate tmrca of I1) that's a looooong ass time for a lot of things and all kinds of migrations to happen. Adding more complexity to it only makes sense.
    Agreed. It'd be nice if it turned out to be a legitimate sample (not saying it isn't, just don't want to get my hopes up) of Etruscan I1. It would be interesting to see this Etruscan individuals autosomal DNA and where he may fit on a PCA. I remember when they discovered that I1 or pre-I1 (or whatever you want to call it) in Neolithic Hungary and a few individuals online pointed out that they had, for a while now, been saying that I1 is not necessarily the result of Germanic spread, but could also be the product of older movements of populations.

    Whatever the case we need to get our hands on more and more samples, the Viking paper provided a good amount, but not necessarily very telling about the origins of I1 (save for the Iron Age Denmark I-Z58, which is not a surprise). Where was the ancestor of modern I1? Was he in Central Europe or somewhere else?

    Not that it helps in figuring out your own deep ancestry. I wish I could know exactly who my ancestors were but that's pretty much impossible.
    Indeed, I've had several theories for my own case of I1, but it's always met with the same variables, either Anglo-Saxons, Vikings or Normans or perhaps later groups or "invisible" earlier groups. It doesn't help that my branch is sparsely populated and my closest matches are downstream or on other "sibling" branches.

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  4. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Agreed. It'd be nice if it turned out to be a legitimate sample (not saying it isn't, just don't want to get my hopes up) of Etruscan I1. It would be interesting to see this Etruscan individuals autosomal DNA and where he may fit on a PCA. I remember when they discovered that I1 or pre-I1 (or whatever you want to call it) in Neolithic Hungary and a few individuals online pointed out that they had, for a while now, been saying that I1 is not necessarily the result of Germanic spread, but could also be the product of older movements of populations.

    Whatever the case we need to get our hands on more and more samples, the Viking paper provided a good amount, but not necessarily very telling about the origins of I1 (save for the Iron Age Denmark I-Z58, which is not a surprise). Where was the ancestor of modern I1? Was he in Central Europe or somewhere else?



    Indeed, I've had several theories for my own case of I1, but it's always met with the same variables, either Anglo-Saxons, Vikings or Normans or perhaps later groups or "invisible" earlier groups. It doesn't help that my branch is sparsely populated and my closest matches are downstream or on other "sibling" branches.
    What are the ages of these pending Etruscan samples? I'd be wary of thinking PCAs will tell us anything after potentially hundreds of years from the date of Y DNA arrival in that area and far from the region where we can be confident modern I1 originated. We should also expect outliers that comply with what we know of (pre)history. I agree the difficulty is in building up a big enough sample size to know what's representative. I hope you get more evidence on your own line soon. I had a recent new YFull upstream recruit who I'm hoping will add to the TMRCA picture when he's processed.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

  5. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    What are the ages of these pending Etruscan samples? I'd be wary of thinking PCAs will tell us anything after potentially hundreds of years from the date of Y DNA arrival in that area and far from the region where we can be confident modern I1 originated. We should also expect outliers that comply with what we know of (pre)history. I agree the difficulty is in building up a big enough sample size to know what's representative. I hope you get more evidence on your own line soon. I had a recent new YFull upstream recruit who I'm hoping will add to the TMRCA picture when he's processed.
    Without wading through the thread again, I believe they are IA and that many of the samples are low quality. At least, that’s what I remember seeing him say. We’ll see. To be honest, even if it turns out to be true (and I have my doubts considering how it’s being reported), I don’t find it all that surprising.
    Last edited by JMcB; 08-26-2019 at 03:30 AM.
    Known Paper Trail: 45.3% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian. Or: 87.5% British Isles, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian.
    LivingDNA: 88.1% British Isles (59.7% English, 27% Scottish & 1.3% Irish), 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%), 4.4% Europe NW (Scandinavia) & 1.6% Europe East, (Mordovia).
    FT Big Y: I1-Z140 branch I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >A13252/YSEQ (circa 1630 AD).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    Without wading through the thread again, I believe they are IA and that many of the samples are low quality. At least, that’s what I remember seeing him say. We’ll see. To be honest, even if it turns out to be true (and I have my doubts considering how it’s being reported), I don’t find it all that surprising.
    If it does turn out be true, I've found a short paper here that sets out evidence for Greek Bronze Age, Mycenaean and Minoan contact/influence in Scandinavia.
    EDIT: this is intriguing too regarding an inscription mentioned in the paper.
    Last edited by JonikW; 08-26-2019 at 09:39 AM.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  9. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    If it does turn out be true, I've found a short paper here that sets out evidence for Greek Bronze Age, Mycenaean and Minoan contact/influence in Scandinavia.
    EDIT: this is intriguing too regarding an inscription mentioned in the paper.
    While I haven’t done an in depth study on the subject, that’s also been my understanding.

    Thanks for the links!
    Last edited by JMcB; 08-26-2019 at 03:52 PM.
    Known Paper Trail: 45.3% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian. Or: 87.5% British Isles, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian.
    LivingDNA: 88.1% British Isles (59.7% English, 27% Scottish & 1.3% Irish), 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%), 4.4% Europe NW (Scandinavia) & 1.6% Europe East, (Mordovia).
    FT Big Y: I1-Z140 branch I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >A13252/YSEQ (circa 1630 AD).

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  11. #457
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    There's another Iberian pre-I1/I* to go along with BAL051. This one is Car1 from Cueva de la Carigüela in the Olade 2019 The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years paper. Sample dated to 9700–5500 BCE. The supplementary material notes that "The archaeological excavation strongly points to a pre-Neolithic context, but several attempts to generate a radiocarbon date have not been successful." Their dating is based on Car1 plotting closely on PCA with other Iberian Mesolithic individuals (as expected for an individual who lived before the arrival of Neolithic farmers); 2.22% neanderthal ancestry (similar to other European individuals that lived around 8000 BCE); mtDNA. Although they stress that a direct radiocarbon date would provide the most accurate estimation of the age of this individual.

    Anyway, this came to my attention as a few comments on Facebook pages noted that the origin point of I1 in Hunter Provyn's Phylogeographer tool was being dragged considerably southwards. Hunter said this was due to the listing of two Iberian samples that were listed as fully I1 in the Carlos Quiles dataset of ancient DNA samples. One we know about (BAL051), but the other one Car1 wasn't on my radar. I checked the Olade et al paper - the authors do not list this sample as I1 in Table S4. Olade et al list Car1/I10899 as I, but exclude some of the I2 subcaldes (xI2a1,xI2a2,xI2c). However, not being I2 doesn't make someone I1.

    Given the known innacuracies in assignments of the database ancient DNA samples compiled by Carlos Quiles that we've discussed before in this thread, I decided to do what's always best - go back to the primary data of the BAM file for Car1/I10899.

    Car1 is derived for 19 of the SNPs that define I1 and ancestral for 35 of the SNPs that define I1. Also not able to categorize one - for FGC2445, ancestral is C, derived is T, while the result for Car1 at ChrY(hg19):4123447 is 1A, so it's a mutation but not to the nucleotide that defines the SNP - could just be damage. As usual with a lot of these ancient samples, the rest of the I1 SNPs are no calls.

    Car1 Derived I1 SNPs: Z2699 1C, Z2880 3A, Z2729 1T, Z2779 1C, CTS10338 1C, Z2885 1T, V5190/Z2742 1A, CTS11036/Z2863 1T, Z2730 1G, Z2720 1T, Z2887 1T, Z2847 1T, CTS1739 1G, Y1950 CGGA, Z2852 1T, CTS6022 1A, CTS4532 1A, Z2859 2A, Z2695 1T.

    Car 1 Ancestral I1 SNPs: L840 1C, FGC7747 1T, Z2718 2C, Z2679 2T, Z2727 3C, CTS6140 1T, Y1872 1G, Z2747 1A, CTS11042 2T, Z2826 1T, Z2858 1G, V5203 2G, CTS11534 1A, Y1863 3T, CTS8394 1G, Z2825 1G, L848 1C, CTS9486 1G, Z2705 1C, Z2790 1G, Y1860 1A, Y1871 1C, FGC2427 1C, L764 1C, L1439 2C, Z2870 1T, CTS9487 1G, Z2775 1G, CTS9368 2T, Y1876 1T,Z6116 1A, Z2832 2G, CTS7386 1T, CTS8708 1T, FGC2462 1C

    So as for BAL051, Car1 represents a pre-I1 lineage that likely doesn't have any modern patrilineal descendants. Not fully I1 itself, but of interest to I1 with a mixture of derived and ancestral calls among the SNPs that define the I1 haplogroup.
    Last edited by deadly77; 08-31-2019 at 07:16 AM. Reason: fixed a couple of typos
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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  13. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    There's another Iberian pre-I1/I* to go along with BAL051. This one is Car1 from Cueva de la Carigüela in the Olade 2019 The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years paper. Sample dated to 9700–5500 BCE. The supplementary material notes that "The archaeological excavation strongly points to a pre-Neolithic context, but several attempts to generate a radiocarbon date have not been successful." Their dating is based on Car1 plotting closely on PCA with other Iberian Mesolithic individuals (as expected for an individual who lived before the arrival of Neolithic farmers); 2.22% neanderthal ancestry (similar to other European individuals that lived around 8000 BCE); mtDNA. Although they stress that a direct radiocarbon date would provide the most accurate estimation of the age of this individual.

    Anyway, this came to my attention as a few comments on Facebook pages noted that the origin point of I1 in Hunter Provyn's Phylogeographer tool was being dragged considerably southwards. Hunter said this was due to the listing of two Iberian samples that were listed as fully I1 in the Carlos Quiles dataset of ancient DNA samples. One we know about (BAL051), but the other one Car1 wasn't on my radar. I checked the Olade et al paper - the authors do not list this sample as I1 in Table S4. Olade et al list Car1/I10899 as I, but exclude some of the I2 subcaldes (xI2a1,xI2a2,xI2c). However, not being I2 doesn't make someone I1.

    Given the known innacuracies in assignments of the database ancient DNA samples compiled by Carlos Quiles that we've discussed before in this thread, I decided to do what's always best - go back to the primary data of the BAM file for Car1/I10899.

    Car1 is derived for 19 of the SNPs that define I1 and ancestral for 35 of the SNPs that define I1. Also not able to categorize one - for FGC2445, ancestral is C, derived it T, while the result for Car1 at ChrY(hg19):4123447 is 1A, so it's a mutation but not to the nucleotide that defines the SNP - could just be damage. As usual with a lot of these ancient samples, the rest of the I1 SNPs are no calls.

    Car1 Derived I1 SNPs: Z2699 1C, Z2880 3A, Z2729 1T, Z2779 1C, CTS10338 1C, Z2885 1T, V5190/Z2742 1A, CTS11036/Z2863 1T, Z2730 1G, Z2720 1T, Z2887 1T, Z2847 1T, CTS1739 1G, Y1950 CGGA, Z2852 1T, CTS6022 1A, CTS4532 1A, Z2859 2A, Z2695 1T.

    Car 1 Ancestral I1 SNPs: L840 1C, FGC7747 1T, Z2718 2C, Z2679 2T, Z2727 3C, CTS6140 1T, Y1872 1G, Z2747 1A, CTS11042 2T, Z2826 1T, Z2858 1G, V5203 2G, CTS11534 1A, Y1863 3T, CTS8394 1G, Z2825 1G, L848 1C, CTS9486 1G, Z2705 1C, Z2790 1G, Y1860 1A, Y1871 1C, FGC2427 1C, L764 1C, L1439 2C, Z2870 1T, CTS9487 1G, Z2775 1G, CTS9368 2T, Y1876 1T,Z6116 1A, Z2832 2G, CTS7386 1T, CTS8708 1T, FGC2462 1C

    So as for BAL051, Car1 represents a pre-I1 lineage that likely doesn't have any modern patrilineal descendants. Not fullt I1 itself, but of interest to I1 with a mixture of derived and ancestral calls among the SNPs that define the I1 haplogroup.
    That's great work from you again. Will you be adding him to your map with a skull and crossbones? And is there any way of adding SNP details as blurbs in these cases, or is that just too complicated?
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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  15. #459
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    Interesting. Thanks for posting about it, otherwise I probably wouldn't have noticed! Perhaps this is just more of a sign that pre-I1 was relatively widespread in Europe, but only one lineage of it survived to form modern I1?

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  17. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Interesting. Thanks for posting about it, otherwise I probably wouldn't have noticed! Perhaps this is just more of a sign that pre-I1 was relatively widespread in Europe, but only one lineage of it survived to form modern I1?
    Yes, I think that's likely. I'm also thinking that there may have been more than one bottleneck between the split from I2 and the TMRCA of I1. But of course it's invisible us in modern I1 genomes as we only inherited the survivor. And the pre-I1 samples like Car1, BAL051, SF11 are needles in the haystack (or more likely the field). If that makes sense...

    There are a few other samples in the Olade paper that are I rather than I2 - although Car 1/I10988 is the only one that has the I(xI2a1,xI2a2,xI2c) designation. I added four of them to the BAM viewer while I was looking at Car1 - those were I0453, I0455, I1282, I1284 - those four were all ancestral or no call for the I1 SNPs, so no positive trace of I1 in those four.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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