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Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

  1. #481
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    I'm also fairly interested in the genetic questions I have, more than I used to be. I suppose with the seemingly permanent brickwall for my direct paternal line it has been much more interesting to try and learn as much as possible about Haplogroup I1 and the origins of it, if I can't figure out what happened prior to the late 1700s, I'll definitely try and learn about what may have occurred prior to surnames and nations!

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  3. #482
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    Please mind my contribution on the relationship between EHG and I1 and their origin in the thread "I1 migration story".

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  5. #483
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    Last edited by deadly77; 09-09-2019 at 09:38 AM.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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  7. #484
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    I've recently been in discussions with Hunter Provyn, the developer of the Phylogeographer/Mygrations tool regarding the ancient samples that his tool uses. I think it's a nice tool, but with any new functionality, there's going to be some teething issues and Phylogeographer definitely has had (and continues to have) some of those for sure. Patience is important for new developments, and I'm supportive of what Hunter is trying to do with Phylogeographer. I think Hunter is a fellow with the right intentions and trying to make the tool as good as he can, and he's always been receptive to comments. I've had discussions with him over a few things in the past, including updating some location tags and adding ancient samples to his database, which pulls directly from YFull for modern individuals.

    Unfortunately, Hunter then decided to incorporate the dataset that had been assembled by Carlos Quiles. I can understand why he did this as it's a large dataset of over 1600 samples, with geolocation and Y-DNA haplogroup data included. Hunter asked myself and a few other haplogroup researches to look over the Carlos Quiles dataset, but the samples had already been integrated with Phylogrographer. It was disappointing to find a high error rate among the I1 samples that I reviewed. Some had the wrong location, there were examples of misreported data in papers remaining uncorrected (eg. SVK-A1 as I-Z131, CL63 as I-Z79), the wrong subclades being assigned due to a misunderstanding which year of ISOGG tree had been used by papers (eg. HSJ-A1 listed as I-A8182 rather than I-Y111864; SBT-A1 as I-S26062 rather than I-FGC74500), a sample of a modern individual (Saami001) included among ancients (and with the wrong subclade as well), and pre-I1/I* individuals with ancestral calls for I1 SNPs (SF11, BAL051, BAB5, Car1) being categorized as fully I1.

    This wasn't exclusive to the I1 samples, but those are the ones that I looked at as I'm most familiar with I1. After some discussions with Hunter, it appears that other haplogroup researchers have reported similar issues with the data related to samples in other haplogroups. Any output analysis is only as good as the data input - poor or flawed data will result in poor or flawed interpretation. An example of this in particular to I1 was that the location of I-DF29 in Phylogeographer was being dragged to closer to Southwest Germany and I1 itself to Southern France due to some of these ancient samples in the Carlos Quiles dataset. After a bit of discussion, Hunter has decided to remove the Carlos Quiles database from his tool and start from scratch regarding ancient Y-DNA samples in his Phylogeographer tool. I don't think this was an easy decision, given the amount of time spent on this so far, but I think it's the right decision. Going forward, I'll be helping Hunter with ancient I1 samples in his tool and some other folks will work on the other haplogroups. Patience going forward and a few things to figure out, but at least we'll be going forward with data that should be a lot let erroneous. https://phylogeographer.com/how-hapl...L13yAtAM878ZMI
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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  9. #485
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    Thanks for sharing. I'd been noticing that there were still rumours going about that SF11 or BAB5 or whatever pre-I1 sample was fully I1. Nice to see Mr. Provyn taking this step even though it is probably a bit of a pain considering all the work he had already done beforehand.

    I'm interested to see what comes of the I1 found in Iron Age Italy (I think one was believed to be Etruscan?), it should be an interesting addition to the growing list of Ancient I1 (and pre-I1).

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Thanks for sharing. I'd been noticing that there were still rumours going about that SF11 or BAB5 or whatever pre-I1 sample was fully I1. Nice to see Mr. Provyn taking this step even though it is probably a bit of a pain considering all the work he had already done beforehand.

    I'm interested to see what comes of the I1 found in Iron Age Italy (I think one was believed to be Etruscan?), it should be an interesting addition to the growing list of Ancient I1 (and pre-I1).
    Yes, I don't think he took the decision lightly as there had been a fair bit of work invested up to that point. I believe his initial strategy was to implement the dataset of ancient samples dataset, and then correct mistakes as they were discovered. Unfortunately, the high error rate (at least for I1 samples, although not surprisingly it became an issue for other haplogroups as well) made the task of correcting more onerous than the initial implementation, and a lot of frustration all round. As Hunter says on his website "Progress is sometimes cyclical" which I think is a good attitude.

    Yes, that one will be interesting. I believe someone said the I1 sample was low quality, which would effect how much information that we can extract from the sequenced genome. Of course we won't know anything until the data is available. I was following in and out of that thread regarding the ancient I1 in Italy, although as Rozenfeld commented in post #991 "100 pages of discussion and relevant ancient DNA paper is not yet published. Is it a record?" and now it's up to 124 pages and 1236 posts. It seems sometimes that studies or samples with hints but without an actual paper or data seem to acquire a rather mythical status - such as the I1 samples Kow_55 and Mar-7 - the "Early Medieval aDNA from Poland coming soon" thread started in 2016 and went on for 245 pages and 2448 posts...
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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  13. #487
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    Yeah, some of these upcoming papers have taken so long to actually be released, the threads discussing them just end up being hundreds of pages long and thousands of posts about various arguments and naturally, disagreements from various people. Oh well, just the nature of things I suppose.

  14. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    We should get Cnut and others from Winchester pretty soon too.
    This video is up now from Barrington A, Edix Hill, Cambridgeshire. Twenty two early AS samples have been shotgun sequenced as part of a Masters project. I'm attaching a screenshot showing how they cluster (with Icelanders rather than Germans, which doesn't seem surprising to me if there were Jutes among them). No haplogroup data yet. I see there are also late AS samples from Gamlingay in Cambridgeshire on the chart and later Medieval from St Johns Divinity School.

    https://youtu.be/sr2kRkiCiT0

    Attachment 32177
    Meanwhile in another part of the forum with Firemonkey's and my family's results....pointing at this? No Saxons pop up in the case of fire monkey for example...and more puzzles...

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-Danish-factor

  15. #489
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    For your possible interest.

    There appears to be an I1-L258 sample in the upcoming paper:

    Mittnik A., et al., Kinship-based social inequality in Bronze Age Europe

    60-OBKR_117_d I-L258 I-L258 I1a1b3a1

    https://edmond.mpdl.mpg.de/imeji/col...FcMTgRKNqe4Nzm


    At least, according to the analysis of:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post607295


    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L258/

    The dates seem to be at odds, though. Guess we’ll have to wait and see what the paper says about this one. As far as context is concerned.
    Last edited by JMcB; 10-04-2019 at 03:22 PM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  17. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    For your possible interest.

    There appears to be an I1-L258 sample in the upcoming paper:

    Mittnik A., et al., Kinship-based social inequality in Bronze Age Europe

    60-OBKR_117_d I-L258 I-L258 I1a1b3a1

    https://edmond.mpdl.mpg.de/imeji/col...FcMTgRKNqe4Nzm


    At least, according to the analysis of:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post607295


    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L258/

    The dates seem to be at odds, though. Guess we’ll have to wait and see what the paper says about this one. As far as context is concerned.
    Good to know - I'll keep an eye out for this paper and the associated data (which is where we can really dig into the weeds). As you say, wait and see.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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