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Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

  1. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Browsing the list of FTDNA analyzed samples on Roberta Estes blog, VK301 is I-FGC105192, which is downstream of I-F2642. The paper itself listed VK301 as I-Z59, so that's significantly more downstream.
    Thanks for pointing that out. It looks like he shares that subclade with an Irishman, with a Dane in the subclade just below (FT156954) and two Frenchmen just below that (FT155524)

    There’s not too much on him:

    The burial ground of Ladby was uncovered west of Nymarksgård near the ship-grave of Ladby, south of Kerteminde Fjord. It was found during the course of gravel digging. It was excavated by the National Museum in 1934-35 and 1938. Ten flat inhumation graves were unearthed. Traces of a wooden coffin were found in Grave 2 (VK319). The grave was oriented northwest-southeast. Grave 4 (VK301) was buried in a supine position with the head resting on a stone. The grave was oriented northwest-southeast. An iron knife was found in the grave. It has been difficult to determine the earliest and latest date for the use of the burial ground, because most of the graves were badly damaged and did not contain any objects that could yield specific dating. Most of the finds were iron knives. A C-14 dating of Grave 4 from 1997 yielded a date of 640-890 CE with +/- 1 standard deviation. Generally, the burial ground is thought to have been in use from about 700 CE to sometime into the 10th century CE46–48.

    Samples used for DNA analysis:
    VK301 Denmark_Ladby Grav 4
    VK319 Denmark_Ladby Grav 2

    Supplemental Page 11
    Last edited by JMcB; 09-19-2020 at 03:00 PM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  3. #782
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Browsing the list of FTDNA analyzed samples on Roberta Estes blog, VK301 is I-FGC105192, which is downstream of I-F2642. The paper itself listed VK301 as I-Z59, so that's significantly more downstream.

    Yeah VK446 was initially labeled I-Z2041 by the study. I-FGC24357 is 6 subclade levels below that. I’m very happy that YFull and Ftdna are both double checking these samples.

    VK71 is labeled I-S22349 by Ftdna which is also on my direct patrilineal line (I-FGC24354 on YFull). I decided to look at it and I found no coverage for the subclades several levels above it with I-Z2041, I-Z2040, I-Z382, I-S26361 and I-S16414. Even the SNP I-S22349 had no coverage but it’s phyloequivalent I-FGC24354 had one positive read. I wonder if Ftdna was able to find any other evidence besides that one positive read? I don’t think though it will be sufficient evidence or coverage for YFull to add this sample to their Haplotree?
    I-DF29: ool009 Skane, Sweden 1930-1750 BCE

    Z58, Z59, Z2041, Z2040, Z382, FGC24333

    S26361: VK532 Zealand, Denmark 200-375 CE

    S16414, FGC24354, FGC24357, FGC24356, S10350

    FGC75802/BY19383: VK446 Funen, Denmark 800-1050 CE

    Y125947, S21197, BY149414, BY188003, BY188570

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  5. #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Browsing the list of FTDNA analyzed samples on Roberta Estes blog, VK301 is I-FGC105192, which is downstream of I-F2642. The paper itself listed VK301 as I-Z59, so that's significantly more downstream.
    I’m not sure if they’re going strictly in order over there but if so, it looks like they skipped VK357 & VK363.

    Judging from your numbers they looked reasonable to me but I may be mistaken

    VK357 1.387 I-Z140

    VK363 1.337 I-Z140


    What do you think?
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    I’m not sure if they’re going strictly in order over there but if so, it looks like they skipped VK357 & VK363.

    Judging from your numbers they looked reasonable to me but I may be mistaken

    VK357 1.387 I-Z140

    VK363 1.337 I-Z140


    What do you think?
    It seems like they're mostly in order, but you're right they do appear to have skipped some. From what I know about FTDNA's analysis, I believe there's an automated first pass through of the data followed by a manual review. My guess is that the skipped ones might have some SNPs that are inconsistent with each other (for example, false positives/negatives from postmortem DNA damage) so they want to take a closer look at those before posting them while some of the later ones in numerical order might be more clear cut. Pretty sure we'll see VK357 and VK363 at some point, although Roberta Estes blog says the list of samples will be updated on business days - so probably won't see another change until Monday.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    It seems like they're mostly in order, but you're right they do appear to have skipped some. From what I know about FTDNA's analysis, I believe there's an automated first pass through of the data followed by a manual review. My guess is that the skipped ones might have some SNPs that are inconsistent with each other (for example, false positives/negatives from postmortem DNA damage) so they want to take a closer look at those before posting them while some of the later ones in numerical order might be more clear cut. Pretty sure we'll see VK357 and VK363 at some point, although Roberta Estes blog says the list of samples will be updated on business days - so probably won't see another change until Monday.
    Thanks, I was hoping that was the case. I usually check her blog everyday anyway, so I’ll look again on Monday. It would be nice to see what those two get.
    Last edited by JMcB; 09-19-2020 at 07:03 PM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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    VK363 looks like he is I-Y7278 due to a positive result for phylogenetic SNP FGC64932 and consistent upstream SNPs, but negative for the known downstream clades I-Y10890 and below that, so that's where he branches away from the known tree.

    SNP calls for VK363: Y6231+ (1A), Y7397+ (2T), Y7279+ (1A), Y7396+ (1G), FGC64932+ (1A), Y10890/A1471- (1G), A9397- (2G), A2064- (1C).
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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    Not to distract from the Viking samples, but forgive me for being really late these quoted posts but...

    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    So the two samples we have on the datasheet in addition to BES1248, using tables S1-1 and S5-1:

    Sample ID Cx161: y haplogroup (capture) I1a2b4~. I-FGC3466. Mt haplogroup H1.
    Middle Neolithic 2 (5340 +/ 30BP).
    ZAC Agora, Cugnaux, Haute-Garonne.

    Sample ID FAD9: y haplogroup (capture) I1a2a1a1a3a2b~. I-A11354. Mt haplogroup K1b1a1.
    Early Bronze Age (3490 +/- 30BP).
    Dolmen des Fades, Pépieux, Aude.
    I feel like I've missed this , interesting. This definitely shakes things up for the TMRCA of I1. I've always found I1 to be odd, bizarre formation estimation to TMRCA. Clearly something is off now that we have I-FGC3466 in the Neolithic and I-A11354 in the Bronze Age. This reminds me of the La Tene I1 sample, this all definitely shakes up what we know and makes me question how certain branches of I1 moved around and when.

    Quote Originally Posted by oz View Post
    Is that under Z58?
    So after all these years and hundreds if not thousands of ancient DNA samples across Europe we come to find out Z58 (and possibly other I1a's) might've originated in Neolithic France? That's truly amazing.
    And I guess the tmrca estimates aren't reliable.
    If I-Z58 originated in Neolithic France that definitely makes things interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    If this Cugnaux guy really does turn out to be what they say, we'll all be pondering how he got so far south. He or his Y ancestor could have been anything from a lone traveller to an enslaved spoil of war passed over a long distance, or -- perhaps the most intriguing possibility -- part of a cultural group that had made its way south. This is interesting from a study called "Enclosing the Neolithic", edited by Alex Gibson, because it does point to potential links or influences between Cugnaux and cultures much nearer Scandinavia (where we might most expect to find Neolithic I1) in the forms of the LBK, Rössen and Michelsberg cultures.

    It says: "The Chassean enclosures of the south of France are [rare …] The most complete
    and recently published results come from the site of Villeneuve-Tolosane/Cugnaux (Gandelin 2011) [...] These southern enclosures appeared later than their counterparts in northern France which were constructed from the end of the Early Neolithic (Villeneuve-Saint-Germain/Middle Neolithic I transition) and are based on LBK models present in Germany and Belgium from the end of the 6th millennium. BC. These were developed in the Cerny Culture and the Chambon Group in the Paris Basin and in the Rössen culture further to the east and their
    morphology and sizes vary. It is during the Middle Neolithic II that enclosures become widespread among the northern
    Chassean cultures, the Michelsberg culture and the Noyen group [...] Several hypotheses have been proposed to explain the appearance of these sites in southern France [...] The first concerns security and protection (defense of a settlement, conflict between groups, protection of livestock etc) whilst the second is more symbolic or ritualistic (cultural, funerary, display etc)."

    I can also see a couple of studies involving isotopes and this site. The only one I can access, "Southern French Neolithic Populations: Isotopic Evidence for Regional Specificities in Environment and Diet", suggests some outlier burials, including in Cugnaux, of people who had moved around during their lifetimes. This range seems to be restricted to Garonne, Languedoc and Catalonia though and of course doesn't tell us where any of the Cugnaux ancestors would have originated.

    It concludes: "The presence of outlier individuals whose isotopic data are unique might reveal population mobility, as suggested by other authors in relation to archaeological evidence (flint supply, Vaquer, personal communication)."

    I look forward to further developments on this sample for sure.

    Edit: added bold for emphasis
    Very interesting, thanks for posting.

    Quote Originally Posted by oz View Post
    Who cares what someone decides to call these haplogroups, they're just some letters and numbers someone gave them, honestly I don't care what they call it. I just suggested a practical solution.

    Back to what JonikW shared, if these I1a2+ turn out to be legit, what does that mean for the Scandinavian I1a? Are they Neolithic France Jr. now? Lol...

    What does it mean for all the I1 all over Europe and elsewhere...do you question the Germanic expansion as the culprit?
    Doesn't really seem feasible, because in that case wouldn't they have found I1a samples before at least nearby France somewhere which predate the Germanic migrations? France isn't an island to suggest that I1a was isolated there forever and expanded from there in the late Neolithic or something. If you look at Neolithic hgs that have been found so far and if we compare it with I2 the closest relative, it's been found everywhere in all time periods in big numbers. G2 as well and a bunch of others.
    I'm not sure what this may mean for I1 all over Europe. I still think we don't know enough to really argue with any confidence as to whether all of I1 can still be linked to Germanic expansions (obviously a large amount of I1 can still be tied to this). There is certainly more to the I1 story and I fear that a lot of it is getting buried by the vast amount of R1b results in these studies.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I can't see any mention of him elsewhere in the material, but he's in a table with other samples from the study so looks like he is too. Please tell me if I'm wrong...

    Attachment 37764

    Edit: added a fuller screenshot
    I may have missed it, is there a link to this study that isn't behind a paywall?

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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    VK363 looks like he is I-Y7278 due to a positive result for phylogenetic SNP FGC64932 and consistent upstream SNPs, but negative for the known downstream clades I-Y10890 and below that, so that's where he branches away from the known tree.

    SNP calls for VK363: Y6231+ (1A), Y7397+ (2T), Y7279+ (1A), Y7396+ (1G), FGC64932+ (1A), Y10890/A1471- (1G), A9397- (2G), A2064- (1C).
    Thanks! I didn’t even have to wait until Monday!
    Last edited by JMcB; 09-19-2020 at 07:03 PM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Not to distract from the Viking samples, but forgive me for being really late these quoted posts but...



    I feel like I've missed this , interesting. This definitely shakes things up for the TMRCA of I1. I've always found I1 to be odd, bizarre formation estimation to TMRCA. Clearly something is off now that we have I-FGC3466 in the Neolithic and I-A11354 in the Bronze Age. This reminds me of the La Tene I1 sample, this all definitely shakes up what we know and makes me question how certain branches of I1 moved around and when.



    If I-Z58 originated in Neolithic France that definitely makes things interesting.



    Very interesting, thanks for posting.



    I'm not sure what this may mean for I1 all over Europe. I still think we don't know enough to really argue with any confidence as to whether all of I1 can still be linked to Germanic expansions (obviously a large amount of I1 can still be tied to this). There is certainly more to the I1 story and I fear that a lot of it is getting buried by the vast amount of R1b results in these studies.



    I may have missed it, is there a link to this study that isn't behind a paywall?
    I believe it’s behind a paywall but you can get some information from the supplemental data sheets.

    Deadly has BES1248 on his map, so you can his details and get the link there. He’s the very last sample at the bottom.

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...RGi9YMSIzjeugI


    If I remember correctly, the jury is still out on that paper and some of it’s calls.
    Last edited by JMcB; 09-19-2020 at 11:40 PM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    I believe it’s behind a paywall but you can get some information from the supplemental data sheets.

    Deadly has BES1248 on his tree, so you can his details and get the link there. He’s the very last sample at the bottom.

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...RGi9YMSIzjeugI


    If I remember correctly, the jury is still out on that paper and some of it’s calls.
    There's a little bit of inconsistency in a phylogenetic sense of the SNPs - BES1248 is S10350+ but S22349- (which is on the I-FGC24354 branch upstream) so these two contradict each other and one of the SNP calls is likely false. They are both one read SNPs and any other SNPs on the tree that could corroborate either SNP are no calls. He's consistently I1 with the SNPs on the I1 level, but there's not enough clear and unambiguous evidence yet to classify him as anything downstream of that, so I have left BES1248 as just I1.

    The two other supposed I1 samples in that study are have even less data - there are no BAM files for either sample and they may have been genotyped rather than sequenced. They might just be reporting a single SNP call without checking for corroborating upstream SNPs. I tried sending an email to the three corresponding authors - one of them replied that it should be addressed to one of the other corresponding authors (who was copied in to the email) but they didn't reply.

    I'd be very wary of taking these two samples at face value without being able to see the data. This reminds me quite a bit of the supposed I-L258 sample from Mittnik et al paper that the age didn't match up and then turned out not to be I1 at all - just had a one-read false positive for L258.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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