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Thread: Ancient I-M253 samples list

  1. #801
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    Deadly77 I noticed on your map that there is only one British I1 ancient dna sample prior to the Viking Age thus far. Is this because there are few ancient dna samples overall thus far between the Migration Period and the Viking Age in areas where especially the Angles settled, or is because the Angles probably didn’t carry much I1 which is more of a Viking phenomenon? Are you aware of any upcoming British studies that might try to differentiate between the Angles and the Danelaw in regards to ancient dna?
    As I recall, there are only 8 Anglo Saxon samples at this point and only one of them was a man. So our sampling data is a little limited for the time being. There is a new paper coming out (hopefully) in the near future that may give us some more data but we’ll have to wait and see.


    See:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post700951
    Last edited by JMcB; 09-22-2020 at 04:02 PM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  3. #802
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    Wow Ftdna has VK446 downstream of I-BY19383 which is a phyloequivalent of I-FGC75802 (YFull). Looks like this ancient sample might even be closer in time to my direct patrilineal line than I previously thought having branched apart with I-FGC75802 + I-BY19383 instead of I-FGC24357. Cool stuff
    I-DF29: ool009 Skane, Sweden 1930-1750 BCE

    Z58, Z59, Z2041, Z2040, Z382, FGC24333

    S26361: VK532 Zealand, Denmark 200-375 CE

    S16414, FGC24354, FGC24357, FGC24356, S10350

    FGC75802/BY19383: VK446 Funen, Denmark 800-1050 CE

    Y125947, S21197, BY149414, BY188003, BY188570

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  5. #803
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    Deadly77 I noticed on your map that there is only one British I1 ancient dna sample prior to the Viking Age thus far. Is this because there are few ancient dna samples overall thus far between the Migration Period and the Viking Age in areas where especially the Angles settled, or is because the Angles probably didn’t carry much I1 which is more of a Viking phenomenon? Are you aware of any upcoming British studies that might try to differentiate between the Angles and the Danelaw in regards to ancient dna?
    I think that's mostly due to a lack of samples and studies of samples from that time period, at least among those that have been published in the literature to date. I certainly would not make a conclusion that the Angles didn't carry much I1 on the basis that's there's only one sample. We don't have any other Angle samples that I'm aware of, so could even say that the Angles were 100% I1 based on the results we have. Of course, to do so would be incorrect to make such a conclusion on the basis of one sample. I think the Population Genetics of the Viking World paper having 442 samples is really illustrative in showing the diversity of haplogroups in a population, and it would be nice to have a similar size data set for Angles, etc. I also would not say that I1 is more of a Viking phenomenon - I'd expect a higher percentage of I1 among the Angles, although that is just speculation on my part with no data that currently back that up.

    Looks like you're referring to NO3423, the Anglo-Saxon from the Martiniano et al paper in Nature Communications 2016. That paper only included 9 samples - 7 Roman era samples from Driffield Terrace in York, a female from a first century iron age settlement near Melton in East Yorkshire and NO3423 from the Anglo-Saxon cemetery at Norton. The later two were likely to add some compare contrast to the Driffield Terrace samples. If this study had been run later, it might have included more samples. The paper said that at Norton they sampled 3 individuals from unfurnished burials of over 100 skeletons from that cemetery and selected NO3423 as the best preserved. So there was ancient remains to be analyzed, but perhaps they could only afford to sequence a limited number of samples and concentrated on the Driffield Terrace ones.

    Only other published work that I'm aware of from this time period in Britain is a paper by Schiffels et al. comparing some Iron-Age and Anglo-Saxon samples that was published in Nature Communications in 2016 here https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10408 - that one has ten samples, eight are female (inlcuding all of the Anglo-Saxon samples) while the two males were Iron Age - R1b1a2a1a2c at 160 BCE–26 CE and R1b1a2a1a2c1 at 170 BCE–80 CE.
    The most comprehensive DNA study from the Britain I believe covered remains from ancient Neolithic Britain, which is quite a bit before the period that you're asking about and there were no I1 samples - mostly all I2, with a few I (probably I2 but poor coverage meant they didn't have the SNP calls.

    I've seen a few presentations which include some ancient Anglo-Saxons but they are not very detailed and I haven't seen these published anywhere - for example here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr2k...ature=youtu.be mentions some Anglo-Saxon samples from Edix Hill which also appear to be included in this paper on Yersinia pestis here https://www.pnas.org/content/116/25/12363 but at ENA the raw data only includes Yersinia pestis genomes as FASTQ files rather than the human genomes. Maybe those will be added later.

    For the future, I'd keep an eye on what Stephan Schiffels group are publishing, since there was this announcement of a funded ERC grant MICROSCOPE project announced last year here to investigate the pre-Roman European Iron Age https://www.stephanschiffels.de/post...23-erc-funded/ and also Pontus Skoglund from the Crick Institute was awarded 1.7m grant to sequence the whole-genomes of more than 1,000 ancient British people, using skeletal samples from the last 5,000 years that was announced last year here https://www.crick.ac.uk/news/2019-10...e-21st-century

    As for differentiating between Angles and Danelaw, I think that's going to be very difficult. Both populations originate from a similar geographic region and from time periods that aren't very far apart, especially when you consider our current Y-SNP date age estimations. I think that the broad haplogroup and subclade groups are going to be found in both groups and more downstream subclades we're not going to have enough data to judge that with any level of certainty. But then again, I don't have a crystal ball and we'll have to see some data on this before assessing if that's possible. My hunch is that it won't be.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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  7. #804
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    Hello,

    RE: #265 VK357 Oland I1a2a1a1a I1-Z140

    I am the Co-Administrator of the Hamilton Y-DNA Project at Family Tree DNA and the Administrator of the I1-A376 Y-Group at YFull.
    I noticed today that we have a new member (VK357) on the YFull tree at S1961 (I-A376>Y141809>S2000>S1961 to be exact). This is preliminary
    so there may even be one more connection made below S1961. Y141809>S2000>S1961 is shared by four very well documented members
    of the Hamilton of Raploch family. The most recent common ancestor of this group of four is James Hamilton of Raploch who was born circa 1475 and married
    Isobel Weir the daughter of Weir of Blackwood. S1961 had to happen no later than with this James Hamilton of Raploch and probably not
    much before this.

    About 35% of all Hamilton males are I-A376. We call ourselves Group A in the Project. Ken Nordtvedt has theorized we are Anglo-Saxon.

    Please forgive my ignorance about the Viking study. Can you tell me if the two VK357 references are the same? I would like to know more about
    this participant? I would really like to bring this sample into the I-A376 Y-Group.

    Thank you.

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  9. #805
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonGee View Post
    Hello,

    RE: #265 VK357 Oland I1a2a1a1a I1-Z140

    I am the Co-Administrator of the Hamilton Y-DNA Project at Family Tree DNA and the Administrator of the I1-A376 Y-Group at YFull.
    I noticed today that we have a new member (VK357) on the YFull tree at S1961 (I-A376>Y141809>S2000>S1961 to be exact). This is preliminary
    so there may even be one more connection made below S1961. Y141809>S2000>S1961 is shared by four very well documented members
    of the Hamilton of Raploch family. The most recent common ancestor of this group of four is James Hamilton of Raploch who was born circa 1475 and married
    Isobel Weir the daughter of Weir of Blackwood. S1961 had to happen no later than with this James Hamilton of Raploch and probably not
    much before this.

    About 35% of all Hamilton males are I-A376. We call ourselves Group A in the Project. Ken Nordtvedt has theorized we are Anglo-Saxon.

    Please forgive my ignorance about the Viking study. Can you tell me if the two VK357 references are the same? I would like to know more about
    this participant? I would really like to bring this sample into the I-A376 Y-Group.

    Thank you.
    Welcome to Anthrogenica. I maintain a map of all the known ancient I1 samples that I'm aware of, and I try to include archaeological context with the samples on the map. The link is in my signature, but because you have less than 10 posts, you might not be able to see it. In which case the link is here https://bit.ly/2Z3CJk7 Basically:

    In the island of Öland in the Baltic Sea, many human remains from the Late Iron Age have been excavated from burials and other contexts. There are considerable variations in inhumation burial form (pit coffin, stone cist etc) during the Viking age. VK357 Oland_1097, Kastlösa parish excavated in 1941, a mature male, non local from provenance isotopes.

    You might want to check out Roberta Estes blog here https://dna-explained.com/2020/09/18...-updates-here/which is reporting FTDNA's analysis of these samples. FTDNA are listing VK357 as branch I-FT49567 with comment that VK357 shares 4 SNPs with a man from England. Forms a new branch down of I-A5952 (Z140). New branch = I-FT49567. That's clearly a discrepancy with what YFull are reporting and they can't both be right, so will need a closer look.

    If you know how to read BAM files, they are available for this study at European Nucleotide Archive under project PRJEB37976 here https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB37976

    Otherwise, you can ask YFull to add the sample to your group at YFull - best way would be to send them an email at [email protected] - then you'll be able to look his results for known SNPs in you subcalde.

    I'm not sure what you mean about the two VK357 references being the same?
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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    Thanks for your reply and for all the information. My reference to VK357 being the same had to do with it being listed in the Viking paper and then listed on YFull.
    I see now that YFull has it as Ancient DNA. The Roberta Estes finding seems more likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonGee View Post
    Thanks for your reply and for all the information. My reference to VK357 being the same had to do with it being listed in the Viking paper and then listed on YFull.
    I see now that YFull has it as Ancient DNA. The Roberta Estes finding seems more likely.
    The authors of the Viking paper used an automated extraction tool to assign Y-SNPs, and are using a less comprehensive tree from ISOGG as reference, so their assignments are less detailed than YFull and FTDNA, which have more up to date branches from NGS tests. In most cases it seems that YFull and FTDNA are in general agreement on these Viking sample placements, but there are some slight differences due to some branches represented on one tree but not the other. So you can see in some cases, FTDNA has a more downstream assignment but in other cases YFull does, so it's best to look at both.

    However, in the case of VK357, they're on very different branches within I-Z140. It looks like there are six samples on the I-A5996 branch at FTDNA which diverges from the rest of I-Z140 just downstream of I-Z141 (ie, same level as I-Z2535, I-CTS6739 split away from each other). I don't see this I-A5996 branch at YFull, so presumably no one has uploaded to there and YFull don't have this in their database to compare to.

    Sometimes the the same SNP can be found in different haplogroups or subclades and I've seen these defined as recurrent SNPs. If YFull finds the same SNP in more than five locations, it marks the SNP as unreliable. I'm not sure what FTDNA's criteria is for those situations. Also, having looked at a few ancient DNA BAM files, these often are not as comprehensive as the Big Y/YElite/WGS tests that we can order for ourselves. There's often sections missing due to damage to the DNA post mortem over the centuries, so some locations we can't read and in other ones DNA damage can lead to a derived result that's not phylogentically consistent with other SNPs - so you can get false positive results. When I review BAM files, I try and make sure that the reads are consistent with phyloequivalent and upstream SNPs, but sometimes due to lack of data in the BAM file it's not always positive to be sure.

    I agree that the result reported by Estes in the FTDNA analysis seems more likely. It may be that YFull is seeing a positive result for S1961 but no calls for SNPs at upstream levels (for example, S2000, A376, S1977, etc.) so not enough to disconfirm S1961 as a false positive. FTDNA having four matching SNPs on a branch seems more likely as the SNP calls are consistent with each other. Then again FTDNA may have made a mistake. It probably needs an independent view of the BAM file. If I have time this weekend, I'll take a look and see which placement makes more sense.
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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    Thanks for this fulsome explanation of the possibilities. I appreciate your help.

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    YFull have added country flags to the VK samples on their tree. At today's count, they've added 56 of the I1 samples, which is quite a decent haul. Wonder if all will make it or if there will be a cut off for the lower coverage ones?
    Haplogroup I1 Ancient DNA Samples Map: Hidden Content

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  18. #810
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaltmeister View Post
    I think there is a good chance that Poland as a state was founded by Vikings:

    [...] "Wadyl said: “Buried in the central part of the cemetery, they represented the social elite at the time, as shown by the monumental nature of their graves and rich equipment.

    “They probably belonged to a group of elite riders, but their role was probably not limited to warriors’ functions.”

    https://www.thefirstnews.com/article...cNS2eTdDKQnUgg
    Vk157 might've been this dude, or some kind of connection to it:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sviatopolk_I_of_Kiev

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