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Thread: Angle, Saxon, or Jute

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    Angle, Saxon, or Jute

    I have been trying to do some research into the tribal breakdown of U-106, but I admit to being too new at this to really know what I am doing. I had my DNA tested through Ancestry, and I know I am positive for U-106. I further "verified" this by viewing the FTDNA results of two individuals with whom I share a paternal ancestor (five or six generations back). The problem is that our common ancestor seems to have no past; that is, no one can figure out who his parents were or where they came from.

    Therefore, what I am trying to find out now if possible, is whether my Germanic DNA is Angle, Saxon, or Jute. I figure if I can find out what Germanic tribe I may be from, I can at least begin to research what part of the British Isles my ancestors may have come from.

    All that said, here are my questions: (1) which test would be best to identify the sub-clades of U-106, and (2) does anyone know if any of those have been matched to the various Germanic tribes?

    Thanks,
    Ed

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    The best tests to identify subclades of U106 would be Big Y, FGC Y chromosome tests and so on.

    However to my knowledge there has been no linking of R-U106 to any specific tribes, the same applies to other seemingly Germanic haplogroups such as I-M253 (and subclades) as these haplogroups are old and have had generations to expand and diversify. We must also remember that ancient groups weren't homogenous, they would all have had an influx of people within their ranks with variously differing origins. A notable scenario is that of Britain, a relatively small (compared to the Britons) influx of Germanic settlers arrived and eventually their language and culture spread rapidly. Many individuals in later generations would have been of Brittonic origin but having adopted Germanic culture became indistinguishable from their Germanic Anglo-Saxon counterparts, some individuals in the recent studies appear to have been mixed Celtic and Germanic.

    While we may find these haplogroups in ancient DNA samples, we are looking at a small sample size that doesn't represent the whole tribal group in question.
    Last edited by spruithean; 03-19-2018 at 01:46 AM.

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    Thanks for the quick response. The tribal identification was really a long shot, especially given the history of the British Isles. I do know that I am positive for U106 and negative for L21, so that narrows the search down a bit. Thanks again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ejsteele View Post
    I have been trying to do some research into the tribal breakdown of U-106, but I admit to being too new at this to really know what I am doing. I had my DNA tested through Ancestry, and I know I am positive for U-106. I further "verified" this by viewing the FTDNA results of two individuals with whom I share a paternal ancestor (five or six generations back). The problem is that our common ancestor seems to have no past; that is, no one can figure out who his parents were or where they came from.

    Therefore, what I am trying to find out now if possible, is whether my Germanic DNA is Angle, Saxon, or Jute. I figure if I can find out what Germanic tribe I may be from, I can at least begin to research what part of the British Isles my ancestors may have come from.

    All that said, here are my questions: (1) which test would be best to identify the sub-clades of U-106, and (2) does anyone know if any of those have been matched to the various Germanic tribes?

    Thanks,
    Ed
    Hello ejsteele,

    I not well versed on U106 but you might try taking a look at some of the work of Iain McDonald who has done a lot of research in that area:

    http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics.html

    There have also been some interesting threads on U106 here on Anthrogenica, which you might try searching out.

    Good luck in your endeavors!
    Last edited by JMcB; 03-19-2018 at 02:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    The best tests to identify subclades of U106 would be Big Y, FGC Y chromosome tests and so on.

    However to my knowledge there has been no linking of R-U106 to any specific tribes, the same applies to other seemingly Germanic haplogroups such as I-M253 (and subclades) as these haplogroups are old and have had generations to expand and diversify. We must also remember that ancient groups weren't homogenous, they would all have had an influx of people within their ranks with variously differing origins. A notable scenario is that of Britain, a relatively small (compared to the Britons) influx of Germanic settlers arrived and eventually their language and culture spread rapidly. Many individuals in later generations would have been of Brittonic origin but having adopted Germanic culture became indistinguishable from their Germanic Anglo-Saxon counterparts, some individuals in the recent studies appear to have been mixed Celtic and Germanic.

    While we may find these haplogroups in ancient DNA samples, we are looking at a small sample size that doesn't represent the whole tribal group in question.
    A small sample size yes... but we have found Z18 and two L48s under U106 at least in the Longobard cemetery at Szolad in the men buried with weapons and Northern European ancestry... also Haplogroup I2a (I think) among those with weapons/Northern ancestry. Now Z18 and L48 are very "Northern" groups in the U106 group... while Z156 (my group and a bunch of SNPs under that) is a southern group - found in two of those Roman Era Gladiators from SW of York circa 200-300 AD in Great Britain... and just found in a Unetice sample from Early Bronze Age east of Prague.

    Ejsteele, you need to learn about U106 as a big group and the tree of SNPs under it... they branch off in different directions and for large groups under it (like L48 or Z156) they have different distributions in modern testers and even ancient results (the few we have so far!)... so to say U106 is "Germanic" is not exactly right. Some of it sure is... some isn't... does that make sense? Now keep in mind those Longobard guys were dated to about 500-600 AD - right about their time moving through Hungary into Northern Italy (they found some U106 at Collegno also with 1st generation male migrants with Northern ancestry)...

    Big Y or a similar test would be good if you have the cash... as it will set you up for a while and you won't have to do much more testing... because it's an SNP discovery test and will find you your shared SNPs with other (unless you are just in a very rare group, then you might create your own under U106)... and then some personal variants you don't match anyone at... YET. Then just wait for matches to show up. Go join the U106 DNA group here... Dr. McDonald is a part of that and is in charge of my DF98 group under U106. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

    Also you can join the U106 yahoo group and ask questions ;-) here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...s/topics/47478

    I have personally tested at National Genographic (to get started) then did up to STR 111 test and Big Y at FTDNA and have not regretted it since... now I just have to wait for more and more people to test and for more ancient DNA samples to come in ;-). The find in my group of U106 - Z381 - Z156 - Z304/305/306 - DF98 - S1911 - S1894/S1900 in Unetice culture near Prague was huge as it possibly pins down our early origins from the East... makes that culture and the following cultures very likely vehicles for the spread of Z156 and especially my group S1894/S1900 that I share with Dr. McDonald ;-).

    I've also done the family finder at FTDNA (found many 3rd-5th cousins in Ireland and Highland/Western Scotland!) and plan to do my maternal DNA stuff there too... they are a good company... though Full Genome Corp is also good... I had them name some of my new SNPs found in my subgroups under U106 found with Big Y as I was one of the first among the U106ers to take the Big Y ;-)...

    Let me know if you have any questions, but you can learn a lot from joining the U106 yahoo and asking questions ;-).
    Last edited by Bollox79; 03-19-2018 at 03:29 AM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely Rhineland German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sķlastašir in Eyjafjaršarsżsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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    P.S. Ejsteele,

    I wouldn't be surprised if some of the sub groups under Z18 and L48 are eventually found in Anglo, Jute, or Saxon burials or Viking age burials... considering it's common in the North/Scandinavia... we just have to wait for good papers to come out on these cultures/people.. and considering it's already been found among Longobards circa 500s AD in a Longobard cemetery ;-). I think every group we take a look at will have a mix of haplogroups, but some will be more common than others... so we just need to find our individual (or group) link and try and follow it from the present all the way back to the beginning ;-).
    Last edited by Bollox79; 03-19-2018 at 03:54 AM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely Rhineland German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sķlastašir in Eyjafjaršarsżsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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    Some good comments and advice above. As has been said joining the U106 group is the way to go.
    If you are lucky your matches may be able to give a good clue to at least the period of migration and cultural group.
    Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    Some good comments and advice above. As has been said joining the U106 group is the way to go.
    If you are lucky your matches may be able to give a good clue to at least the period of migration and cultural group.
    Good luck.
    Hey John cant reply to your pm, as your personal quota of pm is full.
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    The Haplogroup I individuals among the Longobards found recently were I1-L22 (I1a1b1) in Szólįd, Hungary and I2-Z79 in Collegno, Italy IIRC. So many of these recent findings are blending together in my mind!

    We need more Angle, Saxon and Jute aDNA findings from the Isles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ejsteele View Post
    Thanks for the quick response. The tribal identification was really a long shot, especially given the history of the British Isles. I do know that I am positive for U106 and negative for L21, so that narrows the search down a bit. Thanks again.
    I wouldn't rule out L21, as it's represented in about 10% of the R1b males of Sweden. It is also among the top 3 R1b haplogroups in Iceland, and likely Norway as well (L238+, L21+, U106+). Keep in mind that the MDKA of these groups is far older than the historic migration period or even the formation of languages such as Proto-Germanic.

    If I could wager a guess, we will see lots of various R1b in northern Germany during the migration period. The need not all be the same family lineage. Some recent data has indicated the U106+ was a significant player as Z381 has popped up in some aDNA which suggests a northern origin of their genomes.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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