Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16

Thread: Sicilian vs. Southern Italian in Gedmatch calculators/other calculators

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,718
    Sex
    Location
    Bay Area
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-BY14160
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c
    mtDNA (P)
    I1a1

    England Italy Sweden Netherlands

    Sicilian vs. Southern Italian in Gedmatch calculators/other calculators

    My question is does anyone know how the Gedmatch calculators differentiate between Sicilian and Southern Italian (Calabrese) DNA? I ask because on my fathers side that I get Italian from lived in Calabria for hundreds of years before they immigrated. However in EurogeneK13 Oracle, it shows West Sicilian/East Sicilian etc. Never really mentions a Southern Italian.

    DNA.Land and Gencove (based on Ancestry raw upload) both show a prominent eastern med. (sicily, malta etc) or a Mediterranean Islander and a few mention an Iberian component, often at 15% and I have no known Spanish ancestry. Only DNA.Land shows a "Central/Southern Europe" component as well as a 9% Sardinian.

    I realize geographically they are both very close, and Im still new to how this DNA thing works so I really have no idea at this point. I also read that due to Sicily's history many Sicilians have Spanish, Arab etc.. heritage, both which I see to different degrees depending on what admix calculator I use.


    Heres K13 results:

    K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 37.70
    2 Baltic 22.49
    3 West_Med 16.23
    4 East_Med 10.32
    5 West_Asian 7.63
    6 Red_Sea 2.47
    7 Northeast_African 1.37


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 West_German @ 6.305086
    2 South_Dutch @ 7.959392
    3 Austrian @ 8.096255
    4 French @ 8.356062
    5 East_German @ 10.959970
    6 Hungarian @ 11.367245
    7 Serbian @ 13.029514
    8 North_German @ 13.822821
    9 Southeast_English @ 14.684525
    10 Spanish_Cataluna @ 15.631288
    11 Portuguese @ 15.703054
    12 Spanish_Galicia @ 15.807058
    13 Romanian @ 16.052464
    14 Danish @ 16.151503
    15 North_Dutch @ 16.228905
    16 Southwest_English @ 16.596775
    17 Orcadian @ 16.669443
    18 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 16.669559
    19 Croatian @ 17.379082
    20 Moldavian @ 17.613192

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Romanian +50% Southwest_English @ 1.983427


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Irish +25% Moldavian +25% West_Sicilian @ 1.757746


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Croatian + Irish + Southwest_English + West_Sicilian @ 1.461064
    2 Croatian + East_Sicilian + Southwest_English + West_Scottish @ 1.608659
    3 Croatian + Orcadian + Southwest_English + West_Sicilian @ 1.618233
    4 Croatian + Southwest_English + West_Scottish + West_Sicilian @ 1.619764
    5 Croatian + North_Dutch + Southwest_English + West_Sicilian @ 1.672808
    6 Croatian + Irish + Irish + West_Sicilian @ 1.686761
    7 Croatian + Irish + Orcadian + West_Sicilian @ 1.707778
    8 Bulgarian + North_German + North_German + Spanish_Extremadura @ 1.715560
    9 Hungarian + Irish + Romanian + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 1.720096
    10 Croatian + Italian_Abruzzo + Southwest_English + Southwest_English @ 1.728304
    11 Croatian + Irish + Southeast_English + West_Sicilian @ 1.736657
    12 Croatian + Irish + South_Dutch + Tuscan @ 1.737768
    13 Croatian + Irish + Tuscan + West_German @ 1.745691
    14 Croatian + East_Sicilian + Irish + Southwest_English @ 1.745795
    15 Bulgarian + North_German + North_German + Portuguese @ 1.753406
    16 Irish + Moldavian + West_Scottish + West_Sicilian @ 1.753815
    17 Irish + Irish + Moldavian + West_Sicilian @ 1.757746
    18 South_Italian + Southwest_English + Southwest_English + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.758033
    19 Croatian + Tuscan + West_German + West_Scottish @ 1.759911
    20 Irish + Moldavian + Southwest_English + West_Sicilian @ 1.761944

    Done.

    Elapsed time 0.9307 seconds.
    Last edited by digital_noise; 03-19-2018 at 02:36 AM.

  2. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    30
    Sex
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Ethnicity
    Mediterranean-Brazilian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-P278.2.
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a4a1

    Greece Italy Sicily Brazil Cyprus
    Italy is interesting because it marks a genetic transitional point between the western Mediterranean and the East. Southern Italy and Sicily cluster together with the Greek Islands while Northern Italy clusters with Southern France and Iberia. This is probably due to the higher Western hunter-gather lineage vs. the predominant neolithic Anatolian/Caucus HG farmer lineage in the East. I'm over simplifying of course but my point is that it would be very difficult to separate Southern Italy from Sicily genetically.
    Last edited by SonsOfHerakles; 04-11-2018 at 03:38 AM.

  3. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to SonsOfHerakles For This Useful Post:

     Dimanto (10-07-2018),  JerryS. (04-15-2018),  Messier 67 (04-18-2018),  Nibelung (04-11-2018)

  4. #3
    Banned
    Posts
    4,342
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a1a
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by SonsOfHerakles View Post
    Italy is interesting because it marks a genetic transitional point between the western Mediterranean and the East. Southern Italy and Sicily cluster together with the Greek Islands while Northern Italy clusters with Southern France and Iberia. This is probably due to the higher Western hunter-gather lineage vs. the predominant neolithic Anatolian farmer lineage in the East. I'm over simplifying of course but my point is that it would be very difficult to separate Southern Italy from Sicily genetically.

    Calabria is very similar to Sicily. See my analysis here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....iko-Arbereshe)

    Calabria is close to the following parts of Sicily: Palermo, Catania, Enna, Ragusa, Agrigento of the ones studied in that sample. Trapani and Syracuse (not sampled in the study but I have seen GEDMatch from there) are closer to Apulia.

  5. #4
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    3,413
    Sex
    Location
    Beira Douro
    Ethnicity
    Portuguese highlander
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-Y31991>FT17866
    mtDNA (M)
    H20 (xH20a)

    Asturias Galicia Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ PortugalRoyalFlag1830
    Quote Originally Posted by SonsOfHerakles View Post
    This is probably due to the higher Western hunter-gather lineage vs. the predominant neolithic Anatolian/Caucus HG farmer lineage in the East.
    WHG is not the point, it's not like there was a surviving pocket of WHGs south of the Alps that made a part of modern North Italians but not the Southern ones. North Italians (particularly NE_Italians, Piedmontese and Aostan) simply have less Caucasus-related ancestry and higher CEU Steppe-enriched ancestry than their southern countrymen, making them more similar to Iberians, Southern French and Swiss Italians
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.6023"

    Ruderico

    Iberia_IA+Hallstatt,82.2
    Berber_EMA,10
    Rome_Imperial,7
    Levant_Roman,0.8

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Ruderico For This Useful Post:

     Cascio (09-17-2018)

  7. #5
    Banned
    Posts
    6,336
    Sex
    Location
    Torun
    Ethnicity
    Central 75% + 25% Mazovia
    Nationality
    Pole
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a > M198 > YP 1337

    Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    My question is does anyone know how the Gedmatch calculators differentiate between Sicilian and Southern Italian (Calabrese) DNA? I ask because on my fathers side that I get Italian from lived in Calabria for hundreds of years before they immigrated. However in EurogeneK13 Oracle, it shows West Sicilian/East Sicilian etc. Never really mentions a Southern Italian.

    DNA.Land and Gencove (based on Ancestry raw upload) both show a prominent eastern med. (sicily, malta etc) or a Mediterranean Islander and a few mention an Iberian component, often at 15% and I have no known Spanish ancestry. Only DNA.Land shows a "Central/Southern Europe" component as well as a 9% Sardinian.

    I realize geographically they are both very close, and Im still new to how this DNA thing works so I really have no idea at this point. I also read that due to Sicily's history many Sicilians have Spanish, Arab etc.. heritage, both which I see to different degrees depending on what admix calculator I use.
    Post his K36. I check in mine tools.

  8. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    30
    Sex
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Ethnicity
    Mediterranean-Brazilian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-P278.2.
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a4a1

    Greece Italy Sicily Brazil Cyprus
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    WHG is not the point, it's not like there was a surviving pocket of WHGs south of the Alps that made a part of modern North Italians but not the Southern ones. North Italians (particularly NE_Italians, Piedmontese and Aostan) simply have less Caucasus-related ancestry and higher CEU Steppe-enriched ancestry than their southern countrymen, making them more similar to Iberians, Southern French and Swiss Italians
    It seems like you read the first part of the sentence but not the whole post...I'm new to this forum, and forums in general, but I'm disappointed to see how unnecessarily nitpicking and quick to hostility some people tend to be with their responses.

  9. #7
    Global Moderator
    Posts
    3,413
    Sex
    Location
    Beira Douro
    Ethnicity
    Portuguese highlander
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-Y31991>FT17866
    mtDNA (M)
    H20 (xH20a)

    Asturias Galicia Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ PortugalRoyalFlag1830
    There was absolutely no nitpicking or hostility whatsoever on my reply, I'm sorry you got that idea but that was not the intention
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.6023"

    Ruderico

    Iberia_IA+Hallstatt,82.2
    Berber_EMA,10
    Rome_Imperial,7
    Levant_Roman,0.8

  10. #8
    Banned
    Posts
    4,342
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a1a
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United States of America
    If there is any part of Southern Italy likely to yield significant genetic differences it would be Apulia, Trapani and SE Sicily which have received both higher Balkan input likely Greek, and higher West European.

  11. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,718
    Sex
    Location
    Bay Area
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-BY14160
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c
    mtDNA (P)
    I1a1

    England Italy Sweden Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszM View Post
    Post his K36. I check in mine tools.
    you did my k36 analysis and I am a member of that infamous Alpine region

  12. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    327
    Sex
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Ethnicity
    White European
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-M223
    mtDNA (M)
    T2b

    England Scotland Germany Switzerland Italy Norway
    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    My question is does anyone know how the Gedmatch calculators differentiate between Sicilian and Southern Italian (Calabrese) DNA?
    Have you explored the Spreadsheets for the different calculators? Those can give you an idea of how populations are defined.

    I ask because on my fathers side that I get Italian from lived in Calabria for hundreds of years before they immigrated. However in EurogeneK13 Oracle, it shows West Sicilian/East Sicilian etc. Never really mentions a Southern Italian.
    I think with any ethnicity calculator, the more specific the results, the more speculative they can be. I would try not to take it too literally.

    DNA.Land and Gencove (based on Ancestry raw upload) both show a prominent eastern med. (sicily, malta etc) or a Mediterranean Islander and a few mention an Iberian component, often at 15% and I have no known Spanish ancestry. Only DNA.Land shows a "Central/Southern Europe" component as well as a 9% Sardinian.
    I did not find DNA.land to be very accurate - they were among the most inconsistent with other reports across all the 4 kits I manage.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Sicilian GEDmatch results, all calculators
    By Sikeliot in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 90
    Last Post: 02-06-2018, 03:21 AM
  2. gedmatch calculators
    By Mixed in forum General
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 06-13-2017, 07:06 PM
  3. New GEDmatch calculators?
    By Sikeliot in forum Open-Source Projects
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-10-2016, 01:06 PM
  4. new Gedmatch calculators
    By catman44 in forum Other
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-19-2016, 12:14 PM
  5. Non Gedmatch calculators
    By firemonkey in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 07-11-2015, 04:12 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •