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Thread: Milam / Mileham / Milum Surname Project (FTDNA)

  1. #1
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    Milam / Mileham / Milum Surname Project (FTDNA)

    I would like input regarding the YDNA- 37 STR results for members of this project. In 2009 the administrators were able to recruit 9 British men to be tested. During 2017 I was able to recruit another 17 by sending letters to 103 men whose address and phone number I found at the British Telecom online directory. I was able to speak to ~ 65 men on the phone and 17 men agree to test with us. I had many rewarding conversations along the way. Incidentally, there are 41 Americans also in our Project.

    The British results fall primarily into two major Haplogroups: I1>M253>Z58>F2642 (15) and three subclades of R-U106 (8). One man is R-L21>M222 and one is J2. Haplogroup I1 is often referred to as "Nordic" and R-U106 is referred to as "Germanic" for reasons demonstrated in the attached population distribution maps. My limited understanding is that it would be too simplistic to conclude that the I1 men are of Viking / Norman descent or that the R-U106 men are of Anglo-Saxon descent. The link to our Project's public YDNA results' table is here .

    I1 Distribution.jpg R1b-U106 Distribution.jpg

    Unfortunately, none of these match the R-U152 haplogroup of the majority of Americans (39) in the project. I would appreciate any thoughts you could offer on interpretation. Thanks a million.
    Last edited by Celt_??; 03-21-2018 at 04:25 PM.
    FTDNA Big-Y SNP results: R1b-U152+, L2+, Z367+, Z384+, L20+, CTS9733+ { S10068 @ YFull }
    The Avatar is an image of my website's home page: Hidden Content - an history of Thomas Mylam and his 6 sons as found in Virginia, USA, court records from 1738 onward.

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  3. #2
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    I would think I1 and R-U106 to belong to Germanic groups, both could have been carried by Germanic tribes and Viking groups.

    The I-Z140>F2642 group has a strong "Western Germanic" pull, with some representation in Scandinavia.
    Y-DNA: I-A14097 [Big Y: Complete] downstream of A13241 (Scotland)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2 (Ireland), R-L21 x2 (Ireland & Scotland), I-M223 (Ireland), R-S1141 (Scotland), R-U198 & R-U106 (Netherlands), mtHg J1c3 (Ireland)
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

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     Celt_?? (03-20-2018), JMcB (03-21-2018), MikeWhalen (04-12-2018)

  5. #3
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    BUMP:

    I have now completed my Summary and Discussion of the Y-DNA test results (STR and SNP) of the 26 British men and posted it on my family history website:

    http://www.milaminvirginia.com/genetics.html#britgen

    And the Citations page is here for the reference numbers in brackets [xxx].

    Please let me know if you find it reasonable, readable, understandable given the limitations of the data we found. Thanks a million.
    Last edited by Celt_??; 04-12-2018 at 12:23 PM.
    FTDNA Big-Y SNP results: R1b-U152+, L2+, Z367+, Z384+, L20+, CTS9733+ { S10068 @ YFull }
    The Avatar is an image of my website's home page: Hidden Content - an history of Thomas Mylam and his 6 sons as found in Virginia, USA, court records from 1738 onward.

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  7. #4
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    I had a look in the FTDNA I1-Z140 project - one of your members (Milam, I-A6441) is also in that project - he's in a subgroup with quite a few folks who are I-L259 that list their most distant known parental ancestor originating from Germany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    I had a look in the FTDNA I1-Z140 project - one of your members (Milam, I-A6441) is also in that project - he's in a subgroup with quite a few folks who are I-L259 that list their most distant known parental ancestor originating from Germany.
    Thanks a million, deadly77. That is very much my suspicions also. I did look at the I1 phylogenetic tree at Eupedia.com which extends to some subclades of F2642 (not A6441 however). The problem is that the subclades are a mix of Britain+Germany, Britain+ Sweden, Britain+Netherlands. Maybe when Eupedia updates in May 2018 the tree will extend to further downstream SNPs. https://eupedia.com/europe/Haplogrou...html#subclades

    As I understand it, the "Anglo-Saxons" invaded Great Britain and brought their wives and families and settled. The Vikings for the most part were raiders with little intention of settling in England although they did setup a few trading posts. Same for the Romans. So those groups of invaders had much less influence on the Y-DNA genetic pool than did the Anglo-Saxons who settled. So my working hypothesis is that most I1 is Anglo-Saxon - but not all obviously.
    Last edited by Celt_??; 04-17-2018 at 09:00 PM.
    FTDNA Big-Y SNP results: R1b-U152+, L2+, Z367+, Z384+, L20+, CTS9733+ { S10068 @ YFull }
    The Avatar is an image of my website's home page: Hidden Content - an history of Thomas Mylam and his 6 sons as found in Virginia, USA, court records from 1738 onward.

  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celt_?? View Post
    Thanks a million, deadly77. That is very much my suspicions also. I did look at the I1 phylogenetic tree at Eupedia.com which extends to some subclades of F2642 (not A6441 however). The problem is that the subclades are a mix of Britain+Germany, Britain+ Sweden, Britain+Netherlands. Maybe when Eupedia updates in May 2018 the tree will extend to further downstream SNPs. https://eupedia.com/europe/Haplogrou...html#subclades

    As I understand it, the "Anglo-Saxons" invaded Great Britain and brought their wives and families and settled The Vikings for the most part were raiders with little intention of settling in England although they did setup a few trading posts. Same for the Romans. So those groups of invaders had much less influence on the Y-DNA genetic pool than did the Anglo-Saxons who settled. So my working hypothesis is that most I1 is Anglo-Saxon - but not all obviously.
    Based on how the subclades are named, Eupedia is using the YFull tree as the basis for his phylogenetic tree - in this case, the closest branch on that diagram is Y19048. It looks like two people who identify with German origin have uploaded their Big Y or other NGS to YFull. That branch is here https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y19048/ and you can click on the breadcrumbs at the top (BY453, Y1966, S1269, through to Z140 and eventually I1) to see how it's placed in the overall tree. YFull isn't differentiating I-A6441 and I-L259 yet - seems they're considered phyloequivalent in the block of "+21 SNPs" as YFull only has two samples so far. FTDNA look like they are putting A6441 as a step in between BY453 and L259 on their haplotree. I'm guessing that some of these SNPs are coming from relatively recent Big Y tests and so expect things to get moved around a bit as more data comes in.

    I think a lot of the idea that I1 is "Norse" comes from the higher percentage of I1 in Scandinavian countries that you see on a lot of maps which tends to skew perception. However, if you consider that the population of say, Germany is larger than say, Norway or Sweden then the actual number of I1 folks is larger in Germany. Richard Miller of the I1 facebook group made an alternative map based on Eupedia's percentages and total population to illustrate that: I1 Population.jpg

    Also been a reasonable amount of debate on whether the Vikings left any genetic trace in Britain - I think a lot of this comes from a 2015 paper in Nature that said the Anglo-Saxons did leave a genetic trace while they were unable to find a similar trace for Danish Vikings. There was some follow up a couple of years later which disagreed with that and there's an overview here http://sciencenordic.com/new-study-r...ements-england

    I think they make a fair few points - I agree that it's difficult to distinguish between the Germanic Tribes (Angles, Saxons, Jutes, etc.) and the Danish Vikings as they originate from a similar area, the migrations that they came over into the British Isles were not that far apart in time, and the SNPs that we're following currently pre-date both those migrations. Throw in the Normans as well and that adds another uncertainty. I just don't think we're able to tell these groups apart with any certainty although I'd be a bit more comfortable separating out the more Northern Vikings from Norway and Sweden.

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    I think a lot of the idea that I1 is "Norse" comes from the higher percentage of I1 in Scandinavian countries that you see on a lot of maps which tends to skew perception. However, if you consider that the population of say, Germany is larger than say, Norway or Sweden then the actual number of I1 folks is larger in Germany. Richard Miller of the I1 facebook group made an alternative map based on Eupedia's percentages and total population to illustrate that: I1 Population.jpg

    Also been a reasonable amount of debate on whether the Vikings left any genetic trace in Britain - I think a lot of this comes from a 2015 paper in Nature that said the Anglo-Saxons did leave a genetic trace while they were unable to find a similar trace for Danish Vikings. There was some follow up a couple of years later which disagreed with that and there's an overview here http://sciencenordic.com/new-study-r...ements-england

    I think they make a fair few points - I agree that it's difficult to distinguish between the Germanic Tribes (Angles, Saxons, Jutes, etc.) and the Danish Vikings as they originate from a similar area, the migrations that they came over into the British Isles were not that far apart in time, and the SNPs that we're following currently pre-date both those migrations. Throw in the Normans as well and that adds another uncertainty. I just don't think we're able to tell these groups apart with any certainty although I'd be a bit more comfortable separating out the more Northern Vikings from Norway and Sweden.
    I appreciate your knowledgeable comments and taking the time to expand on the them !!
    FTDNA Big-Y SNP results: R1b-U152+, L2+, Z367+, Z384+, L20+, CTS9733+ { S10068 @ YFull }
    The Avatar is an image of my website's home page: Hidden Content - an history of Thomas Mylam and his 6 sons as found in Virginia, USA, court records from 1738 onward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celt_?? View Post
    BUMP:

    I have now completed my Summary and Discussion of the Y-DNA test results (STR and SNP) of the 26 British men and posted it on my family history website:

    http://www.milaminvirginia.com/genetics.html#britgen

    And the Citations page is here for the reference numbers in brackets [xxx].

    Please let me know if you find it reasonable, readable, understandable given the limitations of the data we found. Thanks a million.
    Yes, Yes and Yes. Extremely well done presentation! Thank you for all you do...
    390=21
    459a/b=9/9
    YCA II a/b=22/23
    557=15
    572=10
    DF23-, L1066-, L21+, M153-, M222-, M269+, M37-, M65-, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, Z253-

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