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Thread: Siberian aDNA and Turkic, Iranic, and Uralic populations

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo
    Just to add, I think that the shared features of the languages that make up the Altaic linguistic are, plus Uralic (which is what Janhunen focused on) but also including Indo-European and some languages associated with this bunch (Nivkh, Eskimo-Aleut etc.) which Greenberg calls "Mitian", from *m- for 'I' and *t- for 'you', and which he thought was most closely related to Amerindian languages at some remote time, now seem to have some kind of association with EHG-ANE. Maybe they reflect an ancient linguistic spread or contact area associated with the Mammoth Steppe."
    Thats a grand end game

  2. #112
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    Nivkh and Eskimo-Aleut do not really belong to this group.
    Nivkh pronouns are 1. sing. n'i, 2. sing. či.
    Aleut pronouns are 1. sing. thin, 2 sing. txen.
    Alaskan Yupik pronouns are 1. sing. wii, wiinga, 2. sing. elpet; Yupik verbal personal endings are 1. sing. nga, 2. sing. ten; Yupik possessive endings are 1. sing. -ka, 2. sing. -n.

    Take a look at this map of the distribution of first person 'M' and second person 'T/S' map: http://wals.info/feature/136A#2/24.8/153.5

    You will see that M&T pattern covers IE languages, Kartvelian languages, Uralic languages, Turkic languages, Mongolic languages, Tungusic languages, Yukaghiric languages and Chukchi-Kamchatkan languages and some odd languages in Africa and North America. You see that Ket language that is spoken by ANE rich Kets is not M&T language. I would not say that M&T patters covers Palaeolithic ANE people. IMO, it is a more recent Eurasian phenomenon.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 04-15-2018 at 07:04 PM.

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  4. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Baltic paternal N is young and based on some specific Bronze Age-early Iron Age event. The founding mutation type has been found in Finland. It might, just might be related to Long barrow burials of the Pskov neigborhood, which are older but sort of similar than some burial mounds in eastern Lithuania. The people buried in those mounds were somehow connected to Hunnic-Gothic developments by the Roman border.

    http://briai.ku.lt/downloads/AB/08/0...3_Kazanski.pdf
    I missed this before but we already have N1c from Long Barrow burial.

    From the 2014 Chekunova paper
    Sample A5 - "Devichi gory" burial - dated to ca. 800-400 BC, Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

    Although as most people here know this paper has its fair share of skeptics.

  5. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Nivkh and Eskimo-Aleut do not really belong to this group.
    Nivkh pronouns are 1. sing. n'i, 2. sing. či.
    Aleut pronouns are 1. sing. thin, 2 sing. txen.
    Alaskan Yupik pronouns are 1. sing. wii, wiinga, 2. sing. elpet; Yupik verbal personal endings are 1. sing. nga, 2. sing. ten; Yupik possessive endings are 1. sing. -ka, 2. sing. -n.

    Take a look at this map of the distribution of first person 'M' and second person 'T/S' map: http://wals.info/feature/136A#2/24.8/153.5

    You will see that M&T pattern covers IE languages, Kartvelian languages, Uralic languages, Turkic languages, Mongolic languages, Tungusic languages, Yukaghiric languages and Chukchi-Kamchatkan languages and some odd languages in Africa and North America. You see that Ket language that is spoken by ANE rich Kets is not M&T language. I would not say that M&T patters covers Palaeolithic ANE people. IMO, it is a more recent Eurasian phenomenon.
    Well, concerning Nivkh shifts like m>n and t>č seem possible, right?

    One thing which is interesting concerning the second person singular is that in Uralic languages we find both s- and t- (e.g. Finnish 'sinä', Hungarian & Komi 'te', Mordvinic & Udmurt 'ton' etc.)

    The same is true about ancient Greek (Doric 'tu', Attic 'su')

    The nominative singular of the second person pronoun in Anatolian is reconstructed as '*ti(H)' but the Hittite nominative is 'zik'
    (Most support that 'z' was an affricate /ts/, the other cases start from tu-, maybe pronounced tw-?)

    What we see in Hittite is explained as "assibilation of *-t- in front of *-i-". I have thought various things about that, for example if there was an affricate /ts/ in PIE or in pIndo-Uralic, although the experts would dismiss that and maybe they are right.

    (First of all the dismiss that because PIE is reconstructed without affricates and with just 4 fricatives: s, h1, h2, h3)

  6. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    One thing which is interesting concerning the second person singular is that in Uralic languages we find both s- and t- (e.g. Finnish 'sinä', Hungarian & Komi 'te', Mordvinic & Udmurt 'ton' etc.)
    If I'm right, ti > si type of sound shift is a Baltic Finnic innovation i.e. quite late, also visible in words such as käsi "hand" < *käti, cf. fex Mordva Erzya: ked.

  7. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikkaK View Post
    I missed this before but we already have N1c from Long Barrow burial.

    From the 2014 Chekunova paper
    Sample A5 - "Devichi gory" burial - dated to ca. 800-400 BC, Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

    Although as most people here know this paper has its fair share of skeptics.
    The Devichi Gory burial is BTW located near town and lake Nevel':

    "Название соответствует названию озера Невель (Невль), которое, предположительно, может происходить от прибалтийско-финского nevo — болотистое, вязкое, топкое место."

    "The name corresponds to the name of Lake Nevel (Nevel), which, presumably, can originate from the Baltic-Finnish nevo - marshy, viscous, foggy place."

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D...B5%D0%BB%D1%8C

  8. #117
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    It is 400-800 AD not BC.
    That Devichi Gori.

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