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Thread: Siberian aDNA and Turkic, Iranic, and Uralic populations

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo
    Just to add, I think that the shared features of the languages that make up the Altaic linguistic are, plus Uralic (which is what Janhunen focused on) but also including Indo-European and some languages associated with this bunch (Nivkh, Eskimo-Aleut etc.) which Greenberg calls "Mitian", from *m- for 'I' and *t- for 'you', and which he thought was most closely related to Amerindian languages at some remote time, now seem to have some kind of association with EHG-ANE. Maybe they reflect an ancient linguistic spread or contact area associated with the Mammoth Steppe."
    Thats a grand end game

  2. #112
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    Nivkh and Eskimo-Aleut do not really belong to this group.
    Nivkh pronouns are 1. sing. n'i, 2. sing. či.
    Aleut pronouns are 1. sing. thin, 2 sing. txen.
    Alaskan Yupik pronouns are 1. sing. wii, wiinga, 2. sing. elpet; Yupik verbal personal endings are 1. sing. nga, 2. sing. ten; Yupik possessive endings are 1. sing. -ka, 2. sing. -n.

    Take a look at this map of the distribution of first person 'M' and second person 'T/S' map: http://wals.info/feature/136A#2/24.8/153.5

    You will see that M&T pattern covers IE languages, Kartvelian languages, Uralic languages, Turkic languages, Mongolic languages, Tungusic languages, Yukaghiric languages and Chukchi-Kamchatkan languages and some odd languages in Africa and North America. You see that Ket language that is spoken by ANE rich Kets is not M&T language. I would not say that M&T patters covers Palaeolithic ANE people. IMO, it is a more recent Eurasian phenomenon.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 04-15-2018 at 07:04 PM.

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  4. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Baltic paternal N is young and based on some specific Bronze Age-early Iron Age event. The founding mutation type has been found in Finland. It might, just might be related to Long barrow burials of the Pskov neigborhood, which are older but sort of similar than some burial mounds in eastern Lithuania. The people buried in those mounds were somehow connected to Hunnic-Gothic developments by the Roman border.

    http://briai.ku.lt/downloads/AB/08/0...3_Kazanski.pdf
    I missed this before but we already have N1c from Long Barrow burial.

    From the 2014 Chekunova paper
    Sample A5 - "Devichi gory" burial - dated to ca. 800-400 BC, Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

    Although as most people here know this paper has its fair share of skeptics.

  5. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Nivkh and Eskimo-Aleut do not really belong to this group.
    Nivkh pronouns are 1. sing. n'i, 2. sing. či.
    Aleut pronouns are 1. sing. thin, 2 sing. txen.
    Alaskan Yupik pronouns are 1. sing. wii, wiinga, 2. sing. elpet; Yupik verbal personal endings are 1. sing. nga, 2. sing. ten; Yupik possessive endings are 1. sing. -ka, 2. sing. -n.

    Take a look at this map of the distribution of first person 'M' and second person 'T/S' map: http://wals.info/feature/136A#2/24.8/153.5

    You will see that M&T pattern covers IE languages, Kartvelian languages, Uralic languages, Turkic languages, Mongolic languages, Tungusic languages, Yukaghiric languages and Chukchi-Kamchatkan languages and some odd languages in Africa and North America. You see that Ket language that is spoken by ANE rich Kets is not M&T language. I would not say that M&T patters covers Palaeolithic ANE people. IMO, it is a more recent Eurasian phenomenon.
    Well, concerning Nivkh shifts like m>n and t>č seem possible, right?

    One thing which is interesting concerning the second person singular is that in Uralic languages we find both s- and t- (e.g. Finnish 'sinä', Hungarian & Komi 'te', Mordvinic & Udmurt 'ton' etc.)

    The same is true about ancient Greek (Doric 'tu', Attic 'su')

    The nominative singular of the second person pronoun in Anatolian is reconstructed as '*ti(H)' but the Hittite nominative is 'zik'
    (Most support that 'z' was an affricate /ts/, the other cases start from tu-, maybe pronounced tw-?)

    What we see in Hittite is explained as "assibilation of *-t- in front of *-i-". I have thought various things about that, for example if there was an affricate /ts/ in PIE or in pIndo-Uralic, although the experts would dismiss that and maybe they are right.

    (First of all the dismiss that because PIE is reconstructed without affricates and with just 4 fricatives: s, h1, h2, h3)

  6. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    One thing which is interesting concerning the second person singular is that in Uralic languages we find both s- and t- (e.g. Finnish 'sinä', Hungarian & Komi 'te', Mordvinic & Udmurt 'ton' etc.)
    If I'm right, ti > si type of sound shift is a Baltic Finnic innovation i.e. quite late, also visible in words such as käsi "hand" < *käti, cf. fex Mordva Erzya: ked.

  7. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikkaK View Post
    I missed this before but we already have N1c from Long Barrow burial.

    From the 2014 Chekunova paper
    Sample A5 - "Devichi gory" burial - dated to ca. 800-400 BC, Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

    Although as most people here know this paper has its fair share of skeptics.
    The Devichi Gory burial is BTW located near town and lake Nevel':

    "Название соответствует названию озера Невель (Невль), которое, предположительно, может происходить от прибалтийско-финского nevo — болотистое, вязкое, топкое место."

    "The name corresponds to the name of Lake Nevel (Nevel), which, presumably, can originate from the Baltic-Finnish nevo - marshy, viscous, foggy place."

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D...B5%D0%BB%D1%8C

  8. #117
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    It is 400-800 AD not BC.
    That Devichi Gori.

  9. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Yes, I agree that the variation in ENA groups is very big. However, I still rest my case and think that between 20-10 kya, ANE-type ancestry was mostly residing in South Siberia and Devil Gates-type tungusic ancestry in Amur and Okhotsk and Beringian ancestry somewhere in Alaska/Beringia. It seems that the southern Han type ancestry spread very late to Siberia.
    Devil's Gate genomes are even more distant to Mal'ta than southern East Asian and Australasian groups in terms of F3 and D stats. In that sense they can be seen, so far, as a sort of "pure" northern ENA group, along with the Nganasan and Tungusic groups to a degree. Some attempt should be made to use such populations as reference groups in admixture models with Australasian and Mal'ta instead of relying on Ami, Han, Dai.

    http://advances.sciencemag.org/conte.../e1601877.full

  10. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by ren View Post
    Devil's Gate genomes are even more distant to Mal'ta than southern East Asian and Australasian groups in terms of F3 and D stats. In that sense they can be seen, so far, as a sort of "pure" northern ENA group, along with the Nganasan and Tungusic groups to a degree. Some attempt should be made to use such populations as reference groups in admixture models with Australasian and Mal'ta instead of relying on Ami, Han, Dai.

    http://advances.sciencemag.org/conte.../e1601877.full
    In the paper "Resolving relationships between several Neolithic and Mesolithic populations in Northern Eurasia using geometric morphometrics", 2017, they made similar conclusions.

    For example:

    The Chinese appear to have relatively low morphological distance with the European Mesolithic group from the YOO (Karelia) group, but this is not the case with either of the North Asian groups in the analysis.

    It is evident that the Kitoi Neolithic sample is closely related to every modern Asian group, and yet the Buryats display relatively large morphological distances with all other groups. One way in which to interpret this is by referencing the possibility of this group having differentiated from other North Eurasians due to some level of genetic drift.

    The Buryats show a strong tendency to be unique among the North Asians. The two Siberian Neolithic groups (the Kitoi and South-Siberian Neolithic) are close to both the modern North Asians and Native North Americans.

    It is likely that the YOO Mesolithic population was not directly affected by incoming migrations from Siberia at this time, but that it possessed an ancestral morphotype with traces preserved in the Siberian Neolithic groups.

  11. #120
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    Once the full Eurasian Steppe paper comes out hopefully this will all be confirmed but this information is also rather useful for this thread I think.

    ''I'm told from some very helpful collegues that the J-24 samples are the following groups (no dates but I am assuming 1K years old based on location and peoples sampled)

    SAMPLE LABEL DOWNSTREAM w/confidence FURTHER DOWNSTREAM single reads
    DA203 J-Z7706 Z7706+ FGC9883+
    DA222 J-Z7706 FGC9962+ FGC32507+
    DA230 J-Z7706 FGC9962+ FGC32747+
    DA57 J-Y13534 FGC9961+
    DA58 J-Z7706 FGC9942+ FGC32749+
    DA59 J-Y13534 FGC9883?

    DA57, 58.59 is the Tien Shan Saki; DA124 - Tien Shan medieval nomads, DA 203, 204 - Central Asian steppes, karakhanids; DA 222, 230 - Tien Shan Karluks.

    So, turkic samples from the steepe (near Tien Shan range-chinese border)''

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