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Thread: Ashkenazi I1

  1. #11
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    What's so wrong with a distant ancestor who was Germanic and happened to contribute his I1 Y-line to you? Perhaps his descendants married into Ashkenazi communities and converted? You honestly can't know, and NPEs could have taken place.
    Y-DNA: I-A14097(Scotland),
    Big Y: I-F2642>Y1966>Y3649>A13241>Y3647>A14097 (1,850 YBP)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2, R-L21 x2, I-M223, R-S1141, R-U198 & R-U106, mtHg J1c3
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

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     Power77 (04-13-2018)

  3. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    What's so wrong with a distant ancestor who was Germanic and happened to contribute his I1 Y-line to you? Perhaps his descendants married into Ashkenazi communities and converted? You honestly can't know, and NPEs could have taken place.
    Well I clearly have Germanic paternal ancestry somewhere along the line, but if it was so long ago why are there so few of us Ashkenazi I1s, as Ashkenwzim went through a population explosion.

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     Power77 (04-13-2018)

  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Well I clearly have Germanic paternal ancestry somewhere along the line, but if it was so long ago why are there so few of us Ashkenazi I1s, as Ashkenwzim went through a population explosion.
    Perhaps the I1 individuals were not as prolific as the more common haplogroups, perhaps there are still many I1 Ashkenazi yet to have their Y-DNA tested.
    Y-DNA: I-A14097(Scotland),
    Big Y: I-F2642>Y1966>Y3649>A13241>Y3647>A14097 (1,850 YBP)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2, R-L21 x2, I-M223, R-S1141, R-U198 & R-U106, mtHg J1c3
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

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     Power77 (04-13-2018)

  7. #14
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    I1 is found in Sicily as well, so while this is not common, it is not unheard of either....

  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    So not an update as to my own Y DNA I1, but just to the Ashkenazi I1 generally - the closest branch by far is Norwegian, and it appears whoever it was converted/raped/whatever form of fucking it ended up being sometime near the 7th century AD.

    Now, how does this happen? This is too early even for the Viking Age, in fact Rome only fell 2 centuries before. Is this really from some kind of Germanic barbarian? Or is there just missing data here, and while the tmrca with the Norwegian (and closest so far) branch is correct, there is actually a closer branch that hasn't yet been tested. Is there even any way to tell? If this Y DNA has been Jewish for over a millenium, how are there so few Ashkenazi Y DNA I1s then?

    Here is the data (Polish and Romanian branches are actually Ashkenazi - I have checked and am 100% sure of this. This appears to be the only Ashkenazi branch.): https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y12329/

    Much appreciated!
    Probably via Scotland. There was a significant Ashkenazi presence there in the Middle Ages, and there was always some amount of gene swapping across from Scotland and Norway AFAIK even before the Viking Age.

  9. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Angriff View Post
    Probably via Scotland. There was a significant Ashkenazi presence there in the Middle Ages, and there was always some amount of gene swapping across from Scotland and Norway AFAIK even before the Viking Age.
    Potentially, but why is it the case that apart from this Norwegian branch, the tmrca with the closest other branches is estimated to be 3000 ybp, all the way back to L338+ (which indeed supposedly comes from Scotland (/Ireland))? 3000 years ago, Jews were definitely not in Scotland, so unless I'm missing something (or we're just missing data), Scotland cannot be the answer.

    Also, was that also not though to be the case with R1b-U106-Ivanhoe? People thought it had something to do with the Scottish, until some big tests came out and everybody realised it was actually from Iberia (which makes sense, as the Sephardim (from Y DNA) were much more open to at least male conversion), so is it just not possible that this I1 also comes from Iberia?
    Last edited by Ethereal; 04-03-2018 at 06:54 AM.

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  11. #17
    Thanks for all the help by the way - I'm probably going to have FTDNA results in about two months, which is bloody ages away, but I'll update on here anyway. Right now though, it'd just be interesting to pick your brains as to theories about how it seems the conversion was through a Scandinavian before the Viking Age (perhaps a Germanic barbarian?)

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     Power77 (04-13-2018)

  13. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Perhaps the I1 individuals were not as prolific as the more common haplogroups, perhaps there are still many I1 Ashkenazi yet to have their Y-DNA tested.
    That seems unlikely to me, Jews have been tested probably more thoroughly than any other group. Also, I can confirm by checking my 23andme dna relatives Y DNA, and of those I can guarantee are Jewish on their paternal line (hard to do as some of them made themselves anonymous), and assuming that men and women test equally, it appears the percentage of Ashkenazi I1s is under 1/3 of one percent (I have about 1200 DNA relatives, which in itself is a decent sample size). That isn't the most scientific method, but even the actual scientific methods find a huge paucity of Y DNA I1s. If it is such an old subclade, it still begs the question - why so few Jews with it, considering the population explosion?

    And also, there's the question of why the closest matches are Norwegian (no matches are remotely close bar these), when Jews were basically never in Norway, and this is from before the Vikings.

    Bit of a mystery to me!

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  15. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    That seems unlikely to me, Jews have been tested probably more thoroughly than any other group. Also, I can confirm by checking my 23andme dna relatives Y DNA, and of those I can guarantee are Jewish on their paternal line (hard to do as some of them made themselves anonymous), and assuming that men and women test equally, it appears the percentage of Ashkenazi I1s is under 1/3 of one percent (I have about 1200 DNA relatives, which in itself is a decent sample size). That isn't the most scientific method, but even the actual scientific methods find a huge paucity of Y DNA I1s. If it is such an old subclade, it still begs the question - why so few Jews with it, considering the population explosion?

    And also, there's the question of why the closest matches are Norwegian (no matches are remotely close bar these), when Jews were basically never in Norway, and this is from before the Vikings.

    Bit of a mystery to me!
    because that haplogroups seems to be more concentrated in Scandinavia. also, the Vikings made their way into the Mediterranean as did the people they raped pillaged and burned (Normans...) as I stated before, I1 is not common but not unheard of either for Sicily and the ties between Sicily and Ashkenazi are interwoven.

  16. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    because that haplogroups seems to be more concentrated in Scandinavia. also, the Vikings made their way into the Mediterranean as did the people they raped pillaged and burned (Normans...) as I stated before, I1 is not common but not unheard of either for Sicily and the ties between Sicily and Ashkenazi are interwoven.
    But why then do I (presuming I have the Ashkenazi branch, haven't actually taken the test yet) have no Sicilian/Italian close matches? My only matches within the last 3000 years are Norwegian, and they're 1350 years old (tmrca, of course). That is before the Vikings, and definitely before the Normans, and way before Norman Sicily.

    Also, you still haven't answered why there are so few Ashkenazi I1s (there are plenty of Sicilian I1s, f.e....)

    Also, it doesn't matter where the haplogroup as a whole is most concentrated in terms of what my closest I1 cousins are...
    Last edited by Ethereal; 04-03-2018 at 10:56 AM.

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