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Thread: Ashkenazi I1

  1. #21
    Can I just ask, is there any way I can ever know the answer to this? I absolutely refuse to pay extortionate amounts for Big Y testing, besides, two Ashkenazim with Y DNA I1 already have. The max. info I can currently find is the closest branches are Norwegian, and the tmrca is about 1350 bp. The branch seems pretty rare. If you go back about 3000 years, it probably comes from Scotland/Ireland.

    Is there anything that could be deduced from all that? Was the conversion directly from a Norwegian? How on Earth could that have taken place?! Was it a Germanic warrior straight from Norway? If so, why does only the Jewish branch still exist (besides the Norwegian)? Why are so few Jews Y DNA I1, despite this conversion/rape/whatever seemingly taking place well over a millenium ago? So, SO many questions that I just don't have the knowledge for...

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Can I just ask, is there any way I can ever know the answer to this? I absolutely refuse to pay extortionate amounts for Big Y testing, besides, two Ashkenazim with Y DNA I1 already have. The max. info I can currently find is the closest branches are Norwegian, and the tmrca is about 1350 bp. The branch seems pretty rare. If you go back about 3000 years, it probably comes from Scotland/Ireland.

    Is there anything that could be deduced from all that? Was the conversion directly from a Norwegian? How on Earth could that have taken place?! Was it a Germanic warrior straight from Norway? If so, why does only the Jewish branch still exist (besides the Norwegian)? Why are so few Jews Y DNA I1, despite this conversion/rape/whatever seemingly taking place well over a millenium ago? So, SO many questions that I just don't have the knowledge for...
    If you want to know more you should start by testing to see what subclades you have. You may well not be related to the Norwegian line you've found. Where do your father's family come from?
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R-L21 L371

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  5. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    If you want to know more you should start by testing to see what subclades you have. You may well not be related to the Norwegian line you've found. Where do your father's family come from?
    Poland, the conversion would have to have been over 8 generation ago at the most recent (if 23andme is to be believed). I can only trace back 4 generations though, but I tend to trust 23andme's identification of Ashkenazi autosomal DNA.

    I've been reading jewishdna.net, and supposedly the reason why some branches aren't as populated is because the men carrying them entered the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth at a later time (which was the area with high birth rates that the population explosion took place in - this makes a lot of sense to me, and I think is the answer as to why there aren't many Ashkenazi I1s. This does not answer why the closest branch by over 1000 years tmrca is Norwegian, though.).



    As you can see, as a percentage of the total Ashkenazi branches, Y DNA I1 isn't so tiny, but as a percentage of the total population it is (definitely under 0.5%). They spelt Ashkenazi wrong, but other than that the website is very professional.

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    But why then do I (presuming I have the Ashkenazi branch, haven't actually taken the test yet) have no Sicilian/Italian close matches? My only matches within the last 3000 years are Norwegian, and they're 1350 years old (tmrca, of course). That is before the Vikings, and definitely before the Normans, and way before Norman Sicily.

    Also, you still haven't answered why there are so few Ashkenazi I1s (there are plenty of Sicilian I1s, f.e....)

    Also, it doesn't matter where the haplogroup as a whole is most concentrated in terms of what my closest I1 cousins are...
    good luck. I can offer a layman's observation. what does the Jtest from Eurogenes (specific for Ashkenazi Jew) show you in a mixed mode population sample (regular oracle two population groups)?
    Last edited by JerryS.; 04-03-2018 at 08:15 PM.

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  9. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    good luck. I can offer a layman's observation. what does the Jtest from Eurogenes (specific for Ashkenazi Jew) show you in a mixed mode population sample (regular oracle two population groups)?
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 ASHKENAZI 28.73
    2 EAST_MED 18.34
    3 WEST_MED 11.15
    4 MIDDLE_EASTERN 9.22
    5 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 8.99
    6 WEST_ASIAN 7.27
    7 ATLANTIC 6.64
    8 SOUTH_BALTIC 3.98
    9 EAST_EURO 3.28


    Finished reading population data. 78 populations found.
    14 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 AJ @ 2.740811
    2 South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 24.574188
    3 GR @ 26.900328
    4 Tuscan @ 27.526051
    5 North_Italian @ 30.193314
    6 RO @ 30.607788
    7 Serbian @ 32.543846
    8 PT @ 33.820339
    9 TR @ 34.700562
    10 Moroccan @ 35.879784
    11 ES @ 36.010742
    12 Algerian @ 36.144581
    13 AT @ 36.399227
    14 HU @ 36.696774
    15 FR @ 37.657791
    16 IQ @ 37.673271
    17 Assyrian @ 39.178902
    18 Mandean @ 39.344318
    19 Armenian @ 39.463165
    20 Kurdish @ 39.926796

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% AJ +50% AJ @ 2.740811


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% AJ +25% AJ +25% AJ @ 2.740811


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++
    1 AJ + AJ + AJ + AJ @ 2.740811
    2 AJ + AJ + AJ + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 6.772207
    3 AJ + AJ + AJ + Tuscan @ 6.813181
    4 AJ + AJ + AJ + North_Italian @ 7.338726
    5 AJ + AJ + AJ + GR @ 7.612844
    6 AJ + AJ + AJ + PT @ 7.754519
    7 AJ + AJ + AJ + RO @ 7.858645
    8 AJ + AJ + AJ + Serbian @ 8.122378
    9 AJ + AJ + AJ + ES @ 8.296267
    10 AJ + AJ + AJ + Moroccan @ 8.589580
    11 AJ + AJ + AJ + FR @ 8.633346
    12 AJ + AJ + AJ + AT @ 8.674199
    13 AJ + AJ + AJ + Algerian @ 8.912990
    14 AJ + AJ + AJ + HU @ 8.973128
    15 AJ + AJ + AJ + TR @ 9.563531
    16 AJ + AJ + AJ + West_&_Central_German @ 9.655743
    17 AJ + AJ + AJ + NL @ 9.856410
    18 AJ + AJ + AJ + English @ 10.022871
    19 AJ + AJ + AJ + Cornish @ 10.045385
    20 AJ + AJ + AJ + DK @ 10.407078

    Basically, this I1 definitely is not recent (not within the past 8 generations, at the very very least).

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  11. #26
    Put it like this (and yes, I've asked this question on this thread already, but it got swamped):

    What information is needed to determine the true origin of my Y DNA? It "belongs" to an Ashkenazi right now, but clearly it was once Northern European. Getting it - an exceedingly rare branch of Y DNA I1 at that - from a Norwegian is very hard to explain (Jews were never in Norway, this conversion was well before the Vikings).

    So I've given up asking for answers, but now, I'm asking what would need to happen to get them!

    Thanks

    And I promise not to push this thread unless there's updates

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  13. #27
    Oh and also, does anybody know if I can manipulate the data on YFull in any way to try and find an origin, or is tmrca all I've got?

  14. #28
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    Can you tell us which version of 23andme your test is from (or even the date when you did it)? If you download your raw data it should say v4 or v5 (or earlier versions) on the Y-SNP data. 23andme v4 chip doesn't test many downstream branches below I-M253 (I believe it is just M227, M72, L22 and P109). The v5 chip tests for a lot more but won't get as far down as the Big Y tests (and it's not designed to) but it does at least test for Z140 and Z2535 which would tell you if you're in the right neigbourhood to compare the the I-Y12329 folks. For Z140, search for rs768549242 - if it's G you're negative, if it's A you're positive. For Z2535, search for rs765711588 if it's G you're negative, if it's T you're positive. If you're negative for Z140 and Z2535, you can rule out being closely related (at least on the Y line) to the I-Y12329 folks. If you're positive, you can use the SNPs that they have tested at a reasonable $18 per SNP at YSEQ.

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  16. #29
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    In addition to the blog post by Razib Khan that Jonik W shared earlier in the thread, he and Spencer Wells discuss Jewish Genetics on the latest Insitome podcast which can be found here https://insitome.libsyn.com/jewish-g...es-full-circle

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  18. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by deadly77 View Post
    Can you tell us which version of 23andme your test is from (or even the date when you did it)? If you download your raw data it should say v4 or v5 (or earlier versions) on the Y-SNP data. 23andme v4 chip doesn't test many downstream branches below I-M253 (I believe it is just M227, M72, L22 and P109). The v5 chip tests for a lot more but won't get as far down as the Big Y tests (and it's not designed to) but it does at least test for Z140 and Z2535 which would tell you if you're in the right neigbourhood to compare the the I-Y12329 folks. For Z140, search for rs768549242 - if it's G you're negative, if it's A you're positive. For Z2535, search for rs765711588 if it's G you're negative, if it's T you're positive. If you're negative for Z140 and Z2535, you can rule out being closely related (at least on the Y line) to the I-Y12329 folks. If you're positive, you can use the SNPs that they have tested at a reasonable $18 per SNP at YSEQ.
    V4, so I only have Y DNA I-M253 showing. And I don't have that SNP tested, unfortunately. I've ordered a Y DNA 37 marker test from FTDNA (STR though, not SNP) - FTDNA can also test my SNPs, no?
    Last edited by Ethereal; 04-11-2018 at 11:46 PM.

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