General Sephardic Genetics/History

[DEM4867]

Moroccan (and Algerian) Jews may have the same origin as the Tunisians and Libyans.
The main difference may have came after the Reconquista. The Moroccan Jews have received a high admixture from Sephardic Jews from Spain, Tunisians Jews and Libyans Jews have received less.

Target: Moroccan_Jew
Distance: 2.0719% / 0.02071918
65.6 Libyan_Jew
34.4 Sephardic_Jew

G25 models are in no way a reliable method to determine the origins of similar groups.
I have no doubt (at all) the Moroccan Toshavim were not very different autosomally from other western jews, in particular those in from the eastern Maghreb, but haplogroups wise it's surprising how low the overlap is between Moroccan Jews and Libyan-Tunisian Jews, moreover the back and forth migrations of Jews between Morocco and Al-Andalus (and according to some sources the visigothic kingdom) were more prominent than we tend to believe it would only make sense overtime the eastern and western Maghrebi Jewish populations will drift away from one another.
Also the Sephardic influence is not a small factor.
According the Beider we don't have direct evidence of Sephardim settling in Tunisia and Libya in 1492, only indirect evidence for several thousands settling in some areas of Algeria, but very clear evidence that the migration wave to Morocco was so big they immediately became the majority of the Jews in the country, and that's before the era of conversos. About 50% of Moroccan Jewish last names are of known sephardi origin (others are not easily determinable so take it as a minimum estimation) among those some of the most common last names so the overall proportion in the population is higher.
I think when talking about the Magrebi Jewish population one needs to distinguish between Morocco and western Algeria (Oran, Tlemcen, to some extend Algiers) and everything east to it.

If one asks why culturally Moroccan Jews from most cities (besides around 10 cities in the north) "lost" their Castilian language, the answer is that the Arabic culture and language was never foreign to Sephardim to begin with. Even in the christian kingdoms of Spain many kept speaking Arabic and a second language, and many kept writing in Arabic (like Todros ben Judah Halevi Abulafia who is one of my favorite poets) even when living in christian lands.

[DEM4867]

And just to emphasize how much the border between Toshavim and Megorashim in Morocco is ill defined here is an example-
For those of you who don't know after the 1492 Sephardi Jews arrived to Morocco there was a big conflict revolving around butchery costumes between the two group, and each had their Rabbis to represent them so we know of some important Sephardi and Toshavi Rabbis of that time, and of course their last names.
Here comes the interesting parts-
Among the Toshavi Rabbis a man with last name Pinto (coming from a town called pinto near Madrid), you may ask how is he a representative of Toshavim, the answer is that his family came to Morocco several generations earlier than 1492 and already identified as toshavim.
The Jewish tradition was always that if you move to a different community you need to adopt their costumes. The migrations were very bilateral throughout the years, for example we knew that jews from Al andalus were among the first Jews who migrated to Fez when it was established but later on their descendants Identified as Toshavim.
Basically the Toshavi vs megorashi terms can be applied only on the 1492 migration waves and does not represent more distant ties to the Iberian peninsula.

If I mentioned those Rabbis earlier I'd like to emphasize that it's another evidence the medieval Spanish archives we have access to don't cover Sephardi last names. For examples one of the Rabbis of the Megorashim was Rabbi David ben sliman Ben simhon. Bensimhon still exists as a last name today (not very common but it does, my great-great grandmother maiden name is that) but it is not documented in any medieval Spanish archive even though we know this man arrived from Spain. Same can be said about other last names like Elbaz (who have tradition of coming from Albayzin in Granada hence the name) and so on. All we can have are estimates which will never be able to reflect the complexity of the reality and the internal migrations back then.

[Itrane2000]

G25 models are in no way a reliable method to determine the origins of similar groups.
I have no doubt (at all) the Moroccan Toshavim were not very different autosomally from other western jews, in particular those in from the eastern Maghreb, but haplogroups wise it's surprising how low the overlap is between Moroccan Jews and Libyan-Tunisian Jews

this is the key.
the jewish genealogy is patrilinear, but G25 doesn't make the difference between female and male admixture.

[Vinshlusen]

Is there any popular and tested Sephardic G25 model used in the forum? I need to do some testing and would like to start from an accepted base model.

[rober_tce]

.

We have other threads in this subforum that there are discussions about it. Please we should stay on topic.

[GreyWolf]

We have other threads in this subforum that there are discussions about it. Please we should stay on topic.

Noted, sorry for offtopic post.

[AstralProtection]

Am I allowed to share my gedmatch results here? I think they're neat, my family is from central mexico and we have different types of jew.

My grandfather was an eastern sephardim from thessalanoki, his family came somewhere in the early 1900's, and my grandma is french/algerian jewish with romanian jew. If I'm allowed to post MDLP results lemme know.

[Vinshlusen]

Am I allowed to share my gedmatch results here? I think they're neat, my family is from central mexico and we have different types of jew.

My grandfather was an eastern sephardim from thessalanoki, his family came somewhere in the early 1900's, and my grandma is french/algerian jewish with romanian jew. If I'm allowed to post MDLP results lemme know.

Yes you are, if you haven't found a more appropriate thread and one does exist it's likely an admin will move there your post. FYI, people here like working with G25 coordinates which you can get on sites like IllustratedDNA. Also 23andMe and AncestryDNA reports are appreciated.

[AstralProtection]

I think of the segment I share with a Bragança-area crypto-Jewish family, an Egyptian Sephardi with links to Amsterdam, London, and Salonica, and several New World Hispanics. A factor for cases like these not showing up tied to Portugal could be that this segment and others like it probably originated among Jews in Spain.

As for the Basque Country—one of my Sephardic segments is shared with a Basque man from Navarre. This had not been anticipated.

This is where I feel I should contribute, I made a post on the gedmatch forums about about where my granddad held his origins. He holds the "Vasquez-Navarro" surname and his background always interested me, I couldn't get his DNA during the time he was alive but I have a cousin who has more of his segments than I do, so I am using him as a proxy since my uncle hasn't done it at the moment.

He's got Egyptian, Greek, Jordanian and Belmonte in him, around a good quarter I'd say and according to a few calculators has a relatively low genetic distance to Albania. I'm theorizing on his origins being either Italkim from Albania and Romaniotes, he has a lot of northern italian regions but also much Ashkenazim, they are overlapping so it's hard to tell where each comes from.

Allow me to share the segments that match him. The kits are from jews that have greek in them,
UB5894922
[Cousin] Largest segment = 10.5 cM
Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 29.2cM (0.813 Pct)

I theorize my grandfathers family came from Salonica to Mexico if that kit is anything to go by, I need more information on that topic though, all I have is a wikipedia article on Greek Mexicans. Anyways here are the rest of the kits.

TS5417708
[Cousin] Largest segment = 12.1 cM
Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 19.1cM (0.532 Pct)

KD9279905
[Cousin] Largest segment = 12.5 cM
Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 12.5cM (0.347 Pct)

M005335 (NA Greek)
[Cousin] Largest segment = 12 cM
Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 19.4cM (0.542 Pct)

M760700
[Cousin] Largest segment = 12.9 cM
Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 12.9cM (0.36 Pct)

QV6933718
[Cousin] Largest segment = 10.1 cM
Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 17.7cM (0.495 Pct)

GE7128603 (Cypriot + Ukrainian)
[Cousin] Largest segment = 12.5 cM
Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 19.6cM (0.547 Pct)

XH6892129
[Me] Largest segment = 10.1 cM
Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 17.4cM (0.485 Pct)

A650804
(Me) Largest segment = 12.6 cM
Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 12.6cM (0.352 Pct)

https://forums.gedmatch.com/BB/viewt...acd7&start=100
I've shared my family kits and various calculator estimates for my cousin here, if linking isn't allowed please let me know.

[Kapisa]

Jewish holy place in Isfahan

Pir Bakran is a small city in the center of Iran, thirty kilometers southwest of Isfahan. The name of this city is taken from a mausoleum called "Pir Bakran"; Muhammad ibn Bakra was a Sufi saint and mystic lived in this area.
Isfahan (IMNA) - Archeologists discovered a stone dating to 500 BC in Pir-i Bakran’s Jewish cemetery in 1948, suggesting that Jews settled in the area for at least twenty-five hundred years. The holiest shrine of the Jews is also located in this city; Astar Khatun, Sara Khatun, Setareh Khatun, or Sarah Bat-Asher is a religious monument belonging to the Jewish people. The name of Astra Khatun, is known as the monument of Susan Dokht, or the daughter of Yazdgerd; according to the historical documents, this shrine dates back to 1400 years ago.
The Jews used to go to this place since the beginning of the Jewish month of Eloul, and stayed there and prayed for forty days. Poems of the prophet Davood about praying God composed in Hebrew language are observed on the stone portal in this place. During the Jewish New Year, Rosh Hashanah, Iranian Jews go there and stay in the rooms provided in this shrine.
Jewish symbols such as menorah and the star of Davidd are seen in all parts of this place. This area has a synagogue and many graves that are nearly 2000 years old.

https://en.imna.ir/photo/360493/Jewi...ace-in-Isfahan

Antiquity of the Synagogue: A stone inscribed in Hebrew found beneath the synagogue bears an illegible date that some have argued may be equivalent to 1130 AD, while others argue that it is a later date. Archeologists discovered a stone dating to 500 BC in Pir-i Bakran’s Jewish cemetery in 1948, suggesting that Jews have inhabited the area for at least twenty-five hundred years.10 This fits with another legend of Serah, which suggests that she led some of the tribe of Asher into exile during the reign of Shalmaneser V (r. 727-722 BC).11

http://archive.diarna.org/site/detail/public/546/
relevant article from International Association of Jewish Genealogical Societies
http://iajgscemetery.org/middle-east...an-and-isfahan

EDIT: just noticed this is Sephardic dedicated thread: can mods move this to appropriate thread.