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Thread: General Sephardic Genetics/History

  1. #631
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    Has anyone posted Romaniote 23andme results here before (or results from other services, for that matter)? Now that I'm finally on 23andme (my own results posted on the main thread) I found it interesting to compare the results of some of my relatively close cousins from my Eastern Sephardic branch, one of whom is half Romaniote. They are both first cousins of each other through their Eastern Sephardic fathers, and their fathers, in turn, were my grandfather's first cousins.

    Half Romaniote (Ioannina) / Half Eastern Sephardic (Turkish and Greek)

    Half Romaniote - Half Eastern Sephardic 23andme.jpg Half Romaniote - Half Eastern Sephardic 23andme 2.jpg

    Full Eastern Sephardic (3/4 Turkish - Istanbul, 1/4 Greek)

    Eastern Sephardic 23andme 1.jpg Eastern Sephardic 23andme 2.jpg

    I wonder whether it's significant that my half-Romaniote cousin has more WANA than Southern European. Not sure I trust the specific WANA breakdown, though, as I believe we've discussed before.

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  3. #632
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    Here's another Eastern Sephardic match (4 grandparents from Turkey). I wonder if anyone has any thoughts about the trace West African and North Asian percentages. From what I've seen of breakdowns on 23andme, especially the results previously posted by Seabass, these percentages seem to be fairly common.

    23andme Turkish Jewish match 1.jpg 23andme Turkish Jewish match 1.2.jpg 23andme Turkish Jewish match 1.3.jpg

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  5. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Has anyone posted Romaniote 23andme results here before (or results from other services, for that matter)?
    I have only seen one full Romaniote result. She is a DNA cousin, all grandparents from Ioannina. I can share here again (can't find where I posted it) in a good few hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Here's another Eastern Sephardic match (4 grandparents from Turkey). I wonder if anyone has any thoughts about the trace West African and North Asian percentages. From what I've seen of breakdowns on 23andme, especially the results previously posted by Seabass, these percentages seem to be fairly common.
    Yeah traces like that definitely aren't unusual. This person fits within the range I've seen, but has an elevated 'Italian' score maybe. Since the last update it seems maybe SOME NAFJ and Romaniotes may even score higher Italian than the average ESJ. One of my DNA cousins also with 4 grandparents from Izmir scores almost 3-4% Greek and Balkan, I suspect in his case it could be maybe some legit unusual recent Greek/Balkan origins. Also I have a DNA cousin who's mixed Turkish/ESJ with known AJ a few generations back. Her results are pretty unique, could even be worth sharing here.

    I'm not sure what to make of the traces. I can tell you in the previous update I had 0.3% Central/South Asian and my mum had like 0.4%. I did notice only a couple of other ESJ's had it. Never knew what to make of it. The Native American traces are for sure a little unusual. From memory NAFJ's don't score often SSA traces I think.
    Last edited by Seabass; 08-05-2021 at 03:46 AM.

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  7. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I have only seen one full Romaniote result. She is a DNA cousin, all grandparents from Ioannina. I can share here again (can't find where I posted it) in a good few hours.
    That would be nice. I thought I remembered seeing one somewhere, but couldn't find it before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Yeah traces like that definitely aren't unusual. This person fits within the range I've seen, but has an elevated 'Italian' score maybe. Since the last update it seems maybe SOME NAFJ and Romaniotes may even score higher Italian than the average ESJ. One of my DNA cousins also with 4 grandparents from Izmir scores almost 3-4% Greek and Balkan, I suspect in his case it could be maybe some legit unusual recent Greek/Balkan origins. Also I have a DNA cousin who's mixed Turkish/ESJ with known AJ a few generations back. Her results are pretty unique, could even be worth sharing here.
    The more results the merrier, I think. I don't have too many to draw from on 23andme - I only have 1500 total matches (unlike MH and FTDNA where I have about 20k and 15k). The only fully Sephardic/Romaniote matches I've found so far are these ones. I have a few more matches that are half-Sephardic/half-Ashkenazi but that's about it (one is half-Bulgarian J, another half-Greek J, another half-Moroccan J). I don't know anything about the background for this one in particular. She shows up as a 4th cousin for me and for my half-Romaniote cousin, and lists Turkey as her grandparents' birthplace. Of her two surnames, the first - presumably her maiden name - is typically Eastern Sephardic. I believe her other surname is Ashkenazi from Ukraine, but I think it's probably her married name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    That would be nice. I thought I remembered seeing one somewhere, but couldn't find it before.
    The only way I can view her results are back-to-back with my mums since she hasn't accepted my sharing invitation. I've specified who's who below.

    ESJ Vs Romaniote V5.9 23andme AC Results.jpg

    The more results the merrier, I think. I don't have too many to draw from on 23andme - I only have 1500 total matches (unlike MH and FTDNA where I have about 20k and 15k). The only fully Sephardic/Romaniote matches I've found so far are these ones. I have a few more matches that are half-Sephardic/half-Ashkenazi but that's about it (one is half-Bulgarian J, another half-Greek J, another half-Moroccan J). I don't know anything about the background for this one in particular. She shows up as a 4th cousin for me and for my half-Romaniote cousin, and lists Turkey as her grandparents' birthplace. Of her two surnames, the first - presumably her maiden name - is typically Eastern Sephardic. I believe her other surname is Ashkenazi from Ukraine, but I think it's probably her married name.
    Going off the last couple 23andme updates, I can't see myself getting excited and sharing results for ESJs next time. There is nothing really too telling. One thing I'll add . . . . Per G25 estimates for Berber origins in different Western Jewish groups, there is a small possibility North African origins are being underestimated in Non-Ashkenazi Jews outside of North Africa (3.8 and 2.5% seems a bit too tiny) and exaggerated in North African Jews. This update BTW has greatly reduced the Spanish & Portuguese of Romaniote above and retained my mums, which maybe could be promising.

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  11. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Has anyone posted Romaniote 23andme results here before (or results from other services, for that matter)? Now that I'm finally on 23andme (my own results posted on the main thread) I found it interesting to compare the results of some of my relatively close cousins from my Eastern Sephardic branch, one of whom is half Romaniote. They are both first cousins of each other through their Eastern Sephardic fathers, and their fathers, in turn, were my grandfather's first cousins.

    Half Romaniote (Ioannina) / Half Eastern Sephardic (Turkish and Greek)

    Half Romaniote - Half Eastern Sephardic 23andme.jpg Half Romaniote - Half Eastern Sephardic 23andme 2.jpg

    Full Eastern Sephardic (3/4 Turkish - Istanbul, 1/4 Greek)

    Eastern Sephardic 23andme 1.jpg Eastern Sephardic 23andme 2.jpg

    I wonder whether it's significant that my half-Romaniote cousin has more WANA than Southern European. Not sure I trust the specific WANA breakdown, though, as I believe we've discussed before.

    Here are some results of DNA matches of my mother

    appears to be a full Romaniote (Ioannina, Patras, Trikala)


    half Romaniote (Ioannina) and half Sephardic from North Macedonia


    half Romaniote (Ioannina) and half Sephardic from Serbia


    This one appears to be half Ashkenazi half Romaniote (Rhodes)

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  13. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Going off the last couple 23andme updates, I can't see myself getting excited and sharing results for ESJs next time. There is nothing really too telling. One thing I'll add . . . . Per G25 estimates for Berber origins in different Western Jewish groups, there is a small possibility North African origins are being underestimated in Non-Ashkenazi Jews outside of North Africa (3.8 and 2.5% seems a bit too tiny) and exaggerated in North African Jews. This update BTW has greatly reduced the Spanish & Portuguese of Romaniote above and retained my mums, which maybe could be promising.
    Yeah, I suppose you're right about the limitations of these 23andme results. I still think they're interesting to look at, but if they can't really tell us anything reliable about the specific WANA and Southern European origins of Sephardim, then at this point they might as well finally try their hand at an actual Sephardic category (or 2 or 3) and see how that works out.

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  15. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam1989 View Post
    Here are some results of DNA matches of my mother
    Thanks!

    Do these people actually claim Romaniote roots and/or list Romaniote surnames? Just curious because the locations don't always tell us whether the individuals self identify as Romaniote or Sephardic. On FTDNA I've found individuals who self-identify as Romaniote, from Ioannina for instance, but when you look at their surnames and ethnicity breakdowns they look like typical Eastern Sephardim.

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  17. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Thanks!

    Do these people actually claim Romaniote roots and/or list Romaniote surnames? Just curious because the locations don't always tell us whether the individuals self identify as Romaniote or Sephardic. On FTDNA I've found individuals who self-identify as Romaniote, from Ioannina for instance, but when you look at their surnames and ethnicity breakdowns they look like typical Eastern Sephardim.
    None of them identify as a Romaniote but the surnames doesn't sound Sephardic to me though I'm far from being an expert.
    Yes, I think there was a lot of mixing between the eastern Sephardim and Romaniote communities so its difficult to say if there is a big difference between them today.

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  19. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam1989 View Post
    None of them identify as a Romaniote but the surnames doesn't sound Sephardic to me though I'm far from being an expert.
    Yes, I think there was a lot of mixing between the eastern Sephardim and Romaniote communities so its difficult to say if there is a big difference between them today.
    Thanks for sharing those cuz. Even if they identify as Sephardic, IMO you can see the Romaniote origins possibly through lower Ashkenazi, North Africa, Spanish & Portuguese and higher WANA (especially AEL) and Italian.

    I have only one full Greek Sephardic result that I'm authorised to see. Do you know any full Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek, Bosnian Sephardic Jews you could share?

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