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Thread: Sephardic jews with Gedmatch

  1. #591
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheEmperorPalpatine View Post
    I think I can see some triangulations, especially on chromosomes 17, 19, and 20, but I have read this segment on the 20th one (from 57 million to 59 million) is propentious to give false matches. I also have some others on the 9th chromosome on FTDNA. In general, the majority of them don't seem to triangulate, although since I only have the free version I need to look at matches one by one, and I haven't seen the majority yet. I don't know if these triangulations extend to non-jews, tho. When I search for people who match both my kit and any Jewish match I have, it seems that around 90% of them are also jews (although that might be extremely common).
    If I have understood well, most of your jewish matches don't triangulate in a same segment, but a part of them do.

    You should analyse all your jewish matches, grouped them in segments, seeing if these aren't pile up regions. Then, take the segment o segments with a succesfull triangulation and paint them with chromosome painting tool. A segment with a jewish common ancestor have more proportion of levantine markers, for a iberian common ancestor the segment will be painted with much less levantine and more european markers.

    For this, is very good GEDmatch triangulation tool, but is necesary to pay Tier 1 (but chromosome painting is free). My Heritage is also good, but you must have an advanced version to see triangulations (paying an annual subscription, or uploading a kit that cost 29€+IVA). 23andMe also have this tool, but maybe is less intuitive.
    23andMe: 99.4% Spanish & Portuguese, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 0.3% Trace Ancestry (0.3% Nigerian)

    My Heritage: 91.5% Iberian, 3.6% Ashkenazi Jewish, 2.7% Middle East, 2.2% Irish, Sccotish and Welsh

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  3. #592
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    Beider's lecture on Ottoman Jewish surnames is now up on Youtube. I posted his Eastern Europe talk in the Jewish genealogy thread, but I'll post this one here. I think he does a good job with it, with a nice overview of the coming together of the constituent communities of Ottoman Jewry: Sephardim "proper" (i.e. Iberian Jews); Romaniotes; Italkim; Ashkenazim and Mizrahim. Some nice examples of demographics from different Ottoman cities, though I'm not sure his figures for Istanbul Romaniotes exactly match the picture painted by Minna Rozen.


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  5. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Some nice examples of demographics from different Ottoman cities, though I'm not sure his figures for Istanbul Romaniotes exactly match the picture painted by Minna Rozen.
    Could you go into some more detail on this? I also watched this live today and was shocked at the seemly huge Romaniote proportion, and what that implies for modern Jews from Istanbul. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    Could you go into some more detail on this? I also watched this live today and was shocked at the seemly huge Romaniote proportion, and what that implies for modern Jews from Istanbul. Thanks.
    Sure. This was discussed a bit early on in this thread, where I posted that Minna Rozen (in A History of the Jewish Community in Istanbul) gives a figure of 30,350 Sephardim in 1535 (probably including Italkim who had already joined the Sephardic rite) vs. 10,000 Romaniote Jews in that same year. Rozen then indicates that the number of Sephardim dropped (possibly due to outmigration to other parts of the empire) and that the proportion of Sephardim to Romaniotes was more like 50/50 (though fluctuating) throughout much of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, until the separate Romaniote community declined and was eventually absorbed into the broader Sephardic religious and cultural community by the end of the 17th century. That the Romaniote population of Istanbul was especially large was not surprising to me, but I was a bit surprised that it was still quite so large in the early 17th century according to the statistics Beider gave in the lecture. Maybe it does roughly match Rozen's numbers though, and I'm just not remembering correctly.

    I'm not sure exactly what this implies for modern Istanbul Jews, though, as opposed to other Eastern Sephardim. There was undoubtedly a high degree of movement of Jews between centers like Istanbul and Salonika (where Sephardim historically outnumbered Romaniotes by a much larger degree), so it seems certain that the Romaniote component once concentrated among Istanbul Jews would have travelled elsewhere, just as Istanbul itself received genetic input from other communities with different profiles.

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  9. #595
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Beider's lecture on Ottoman Jewish surnames is now up on Youtube.
    Some aspects that were new to me and/or that I found intriguing:

    At 29:50 he mentions a "large migration of North African Jews to different areas of the Ottoman Empire" in the 19th and 20th centuries. He didn't elaborate on that, and I'd be interested to know what exactly he's referring to, since I'm not familiar with such a movement (other than to Israel/Palestine, of course).

    The contribution of Provençal Jews was not new to me, but it was interesting to see some onomastic and demographic references (namely the number of Provençal families in 1530 Salonika at 50:00).

    This is the first time I've heard that the surname Behar (a very common name among modern Sephardim) might actually denote Romaniote origins.

    His brief discussion of modern Greek-speaking Romaniote communities like Ioannina (around 58:00) seems to confirm what we've discussed previously about self-identifying modern Romaniote Jews actually having strong Sephardic and Italki roots, much in the same way that Eastern Sephardim have Romaniote and Italki roots.

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    Updated principal component analysis of non-Ashkenazi Western Jews in relation to Greeks, Southern Italians and non-Muslim Levantines. Apologies if any one of those Cypriots happen to be Turkish.

    PCA contains 6 Turkish Jews (Purple star) shared between 3 forum members and 1 new Moroccan Jew (Brown dot) shared by a member here.

    Non-Ashkenazi Western Jews PC 1 & 2 29.12.2020.jpg
    Last edited by Seabass; 12-29-2020 at 01:20 PM.

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  13. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Updated principal component analysis of non-Ashkenazi Western Jews in relation to Greeks, Southern Italians and non-Muslim Levantines. Apologies if any one of those Cypriots happen to be Turkish.

    PCA contains 6 Turkish Jews (Purple star) shared between 3 forum members and 1 new Moroccan Jew (Brown dot) shared by a member here.

    Non-Ashkenazi Western Jews PC 1 & 2 29.12.2020.jpg
    Nice work! Do eolien's samples shed any more light on matters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Nice work! Do eolien's samples shed any more light on matters?
    The addition of 6 Turkish Jews on top of the existing Sephardic academic samples I think just beefs up the potential polygon on PCA if you consider the purple stars. Weirdly, the academic Italian Jewish samples still seem to show more variation than the Bulgarian/Turkish Jews. That polygon intersects with the Maltese, Dodecanese Greek, Moroccan Jewish, Romaniote and Sephardic one. I really think one or two of the Italian Jews may be largely Italqi, whereas 1 of the Turkish Jews might be Romaniote. I can't know for sure if Italqi would be closer genetically to Romaniotes than Eastern Sephardic Jews. All I can say though is interestingly an average of now 14 Turkish and Bulgarian Jews seems to be a closer fit for the Romaniote average than even the Italian Jewish one with removed Ashkenazi admixed sample, see below. That could also be the effect of a higher no. of samples lowering the standard deviation of each component.

    Distance to: Romaniote_Jew
    0.01255665 14_Eastern_Sephardic_Jews
    0.01404257 Italian_Jew_Removed_AJ_Outlier
    0.01518433 Italian_Jew
    0.01525919 Sephardic_Jew
    0.02254849 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.02391010 Cypriot
    0.02407283 Syrian_Jew
    0.02774412 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.03032604 Greek_Kos
    0.03109965 Tunisian_Jew
    0.03167375 Moroccan_Jew
    0.03208981 Libyan_Jew
    0.03288835 Italian_Calabria
    0.03381418 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.03467587 Maltese
    0.03496218 Greek_Crete
    0.03617154 Italian_Campania
    0.03641744 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.03755644 Druze
    0.03755966 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.03815148 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.03835935 Sicilian_East
    0.03891851 Lebanese_Christian
    0.03926308 Lebanese_Druze
    0.03930927 Karaite_Egypt
    Last edited by Seabass; 12-30-2020 at 04:55 AM.

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  17. #599
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    As I was looking at the genetic communities of my Italian Jewish matches on MH, per this other thread, I was intrigued by the communities of this one match, which I'll post here so as not to drive the other thread too far off topic.

    I've mentioned this match on this thread before. Judging from her surnames, genetic communities and ethnicity breakdown (19.1% Ashkenazi, 5.3% Irish/Scottish, 6.8% Iberian, 55.1% Italian, 13.7% Sephardic - North African) it appears she has substantial non-Jewish Italian ancestry in addition to Jewish ancestry. Her recent background is mostly from Italy, but she also has ancestry from Izmir, Turkey, through a line with a Livornese surname which is also present in Tunisia. As we share a segment with some Tunisian and Libyan Jews, it seems very plausible to me that our main connection is Livornese.

    She has 4 Ashkenazi genetic groups - 3 from Western/Central Europe, 1 from Eastern Europe - 1 (non-Jewish) Italian group (Veneto and Lombardy), 1 Sephardic Group (Turkey, Greece, Algeria Morocco and France) and another interesting group: Suriname, Netherlands and Southern USA ("Afro-Caribbeans and Dutch in Suriname and some in Netherlands and southern United States").

    I found that last group particularly fascinating since it seems to hint at a Western Sephardic connection given the rest of her background.

    FYI, for those who are interested, I found this list of names from Sephardi tombstones found in Suriname. Her family surnames aren't on it, but it's interesting to see how many of the names are also found among merchant families active throughout the Mediterranean.

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  19. #600
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    Here are some notes that I have seen with my family MH results in regards to Genetic Communities.
    I've noticed that if they are from Livorno, most do get that non-Jewish Italian group (Veneto and Lombardy), so in this case, I don't think it's showing non-Jewish ancestry.
    My Moroccan grandparent's gets about 10 Genetic Communities, including the Suriname group. We have no connection to SA, so it must be picking up Sephardic migrations to the Caribbean in the 1800s.
    Lastly, this grandparent only has one group at high confidence, an Eastern Ashkenazi group. So this shows me that MyHeritage needs to slightly improve their algorithm for GC or there is a larger Sephardic component in Ashkenazi than previously thought.

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