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Thread: Sephardic jews with Gedmatch

  1. #611
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    Hey all. so I finally tested my parents for 23andme and here are the results together with some GEDmatch calculators results

    I also uploaded the kits to MyHeritage but still didn't get the results. I see that Davidski is not receiving new kits at the moment but when he will I will also share the G25 coordinates with anyone who wants.

    Let me know what you think of the results.





    Last edited by Sam1989; 05-17-2021 at 07:35 PM.

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  3. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam1989 View Post
    Hey all. so I finally tested my parents for 23andme and here are the results together with some GEDmatch calculators results

    I also uploaded the kits to MyHeritage but still didn't get the results. I see that Davidski is not receiving new kits at the moment but when he will I will also share the G25 coordinates with anyone who wants.

    Let me know what you think of the results.
    Thanks for sharing. It's always interesting to see these results. Still, I wish they'd do something about all that "Broadly WANA"! Their results are less than satisfactory for Sephardim, not that any of the other testing services are all that great.

    I believe you can get G25 coordinates through "Illustrative DNA" if you don't want to wait for the Eurogenes store to reopen.

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  5. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam1989 View Post
    Let me know what you think of the results.
    Appreciate this. Are both parents from Istanbul? Both look pretty standard ESJ, mother especially is, besides maybe the tiniest bit more Ashkenazi than most I seen. Father looks like some other ESJ's I seen who might be a little more shifted in the direction towards Romaniotes or another more West-Asian shfited Jewish group. Both of them having 3-4 Southern Italian regions is pretty consistent with other ESJ's and I think probably reflects definite southern Italki ancestry going back. Possibly an Italki or two being absorbed among Sicilians or Calabrians is the reason we are seeing this I think. Let me know when you have G25's and we will go from having a database of 10 Turkish Jews to 12. Admittedly, there is a bit of an over representation of Jews from Istanbul.
    Last edited by Seabass; 05-18-2021 at 12:20 AM.

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  7. #614
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    I got the MyHeritage results today

    Mother- first group is high confidence, next three medium and surprisingly the last one is low confidence.


    Father- two first groups are low confidence and the other two are medium

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  9. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam1989 View Post
    I got the MyHeritage results today
    Interesting that the Ashkenazi percentage is similar across the 23andme and MH results. Though I still think that some portion of what reads as "Ashkenazi" in Istanbul Sephardim might be attributable to common remote, rather than recent, ancestry, more and more it seems that a good chunk of it could be real and relatively recent. According to Minna Rozen's figures, the self-identifying Ashkenazi community in Istanbul (i.e. those who belonged to Ashkenazi synagogues), were just about 4% of the total Jewish population of the city by the end of the 17th century (735 individuals out of a total of over 18,000 Jews, the remainder of which were over 2/3 Sephardic and less than 1/3 Romaniote). However, I was recently skimming through Adam Teller's latest book, Rescue the Surviving Souls: The Great Jewish Refugee Crisis of the Seventeenth Century, and was reminded of the significance of the Tatar trade in slaves and how the events of the Khmelnytsky Uprising resulted in an unusually high number of Jewish slaves being brought into the Ottoman Empire. Teller estimates the number of Eastern European Jewish slaves trafficked in Istanbul at 4,000 to 6,000, based on information available from correspondence among members of the Jewish ransoming network who saw it as their duty to rescue fellow Jews from slavery. The actual number was likely higher, but many may have been converted to Islam, and among those who were rescued, a number were likely scattered to other parts of the Ottoman Empire and others returned to Eastern Europe. Still, I wonder whether this phenomenon had a demographic impact on the broader Istanbul Jewish community beyond the story that Rozen's figures seem to tell.

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  11. #616
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    I wonder if the Mizrahi in MH results is real, I uploaded my 23andme and ftdna raw date to MH and didn't get any Mizrahi,
    Then I uploaded my AncestryDNA and got 11% Mizrahi, sometimes I think MH results are just random.


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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Interesting that the Ashkenazi percentage is similar across the 23andme and MH results. Though I still think that some portion of what reads as "Ashkenazi" in Istanbul Sephardim might be attributable to common remote, rather than recent, ancestry, more and more it seems that a good chunk of it could be real and relatively recent. According to Minna Rozen's figures, the self-identifying Ashkenazi community in Istanbul (i.e. those who belonged to Ashkenazi synagogues), were just about 4% of the total Jewish population of the city by the end of the 17th century (735 individuals out of a total of over 18,000 Jews, the remainder of which were over 2/3 Sephardic and less than 1/3 Romaniote). However, I was recently skimming through Adam Teller's latest book, Rescue the Surviving Souls: The Great Jewish Refugee Crisis of the Seventeenth Century, and was reminded of the significance of the Tatar trade in slaves and how the events of the Khmelnytsky Uprising resulted in an unusually high number of Jewish slaves being brought into the Ottoman Empire. Teller estimates the number of Eastern European Jewish slaves trafficked in Istanbul at 4,000 to 6,000, based on information available from correspondence among members of the Jewish ransoming network who saw it as their duty to rescue fellow Jews from slavery. The actual number was likely higher, but many may have been converted to Islam, and among those who were rescued, a number were likely scattered to other parts of the Ottoman Empire and others returned to Eastern Europe. Still, I wonder whether this phenomenon had a demographic impact on the broader Istanbul Jewish community beyond the story that Rozen's figures seem to tell.
    Thanks for the information. I agree that probably some of this Ashkenazi that me and my parents get and probably other Turkish Jews is pretty recent.
    I think its even more complicated in Istanbul because of the fact that Jewish communities who lived there assimilated between them and in some point Jews identified by the synagogue in their neighborhood even if it wasn't their original community they came from.

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  15. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by talombo View Post
    I wonder if the Mizrahi in MH results is real, I uploaded my 23andme and ftdna raw date to MH and didn't get any Mizrahi,
    Then I uploaded my AncestryDNA and got 11% Mizrahi, sometimes I think MH results are just random.
    Most of your percentages look pretty consistent. It seems that in your case, and possibly for other Sephardim as well, they're weakest in terms of differentiating between "West Asian", "Middle Eastern" and "Mizrahi".

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  17. #619
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    Lets talk about the Italian component in Sephardim.
    Watching the results in this thread it’s seems like its existing in every Sephardic Jew but in different amounts. Judging by my parents results its look like its mostly from Sicily and south Italy, areas that back then were part of the Kingdome of Aragon. Also, after the expulsions, the Jews in these areas went to the ottoman empire where Sephardic Jews have lived or moved to as well.
    Could it be that Italki Jews were mixing with Sephardim and that’s what we see as a result? And what about Romaniote Jews, I guess they also were mixing with Italkim and maybe now they are much more similar than what they used to be. Do we know how big was this Jewish community in Sicily and south Italy before the expulsion and how many stayed and converted? All this thing must affect the results.
    I for example found a relative of my father who is Italian and have some Jewish ancestry that he didn’t have any clue about before the test. Its very interesting how common are these cases.
    Last edited by Sam1989; 05-25-2021 at 05:14 PM.

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  19. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam1989 View Post
    Lets talk about the Italian component in Sephardim.
    Watching the results in this thread it’s seems like its existing in every Sephardic Jew but in different amounts. Judging by my parents results its look like its mostly from Sicily and south Italy, areas that back then were part of the Kingdome of Aragon. Also, after the expulsions, the Jews in these areas went to the ottoman empire where Sephardic Jews have lived or moved to as well.
    Could it be that Italki Jews were mixing with Sephardim and that’s what we see as a result? And what about Romaniote Jews, I guess they also were mixing with Italkim and maybe now they are much more similar than what they used to be. Do we know how big was this Jewish community in Sicily and south Italy before the expulsion and how many stayed and converted? All this thing must affect the results.
    I for example found a relative of my father who is Italian and have some Jewish ancestry that he didn’t have any clue about before the test. Its very interesting how common are these cases.
    Good questions. I'll see if I can find some more statistics. For the Ottoman Empire, there are already some in Beider's video:

    33/232 Jewish households* in Adrianople/Edirne in 1519 belonged to the "Apulia" congregation.
    Out of 719 Jewish households in Safed in 1555/1556, 29 belonged to the "Talian" congregation, 24 to "Calabria" and 21 to "Apulia".
    In Salonica/Thessaloniki in 1530, out of 2506 Jewish households 846 belonged to one of the Italian congregations (Sicilia, Calabria, Apulia, Talian and Otranto)
    In Constantinople/Istanbul in 1603, 209/2106 households belonged to one of the Italian congregations (Sicilia, Messina and Calabria)
    *A household may be equivalent to roughly 5 people on average (according to Minna Rozen). But it should also be emphasized that the actual population figures were probably larger, since these statistics come largely from Ottoman tax rolls and tax evasion was widespread.

    I'm less confident about the picture painted by the figures for Istanbul, since at that later date I'm not sure how accurately the names of the congregations reflect the origins of the community (considering people switched between congregations), but I think most of those figures give us a fairly good idea of the proportion of Southern Italian Jews in Ottoman communities of the 16th century, following the expulsions from Sicily and Naples. Of course things are more complicated, because there was also some back migration to Italy, as well as later migration from Italy to the Ottoman Empire, especially from Livorno and Venice.

    Another question is how much of the "Italian" percentage that Sephardim score is a reflection of Italki heritage, and how much of it comes from other Jewish sources which read as "Italian" but which are not derived from populations that lived in Italy at any point in the last millennium. I'm pretty sure that the "Italian" scored by Eastern Sephardim comes from multiple sources. North African Sephardim also frequently score "Italian" in ethnicity breakdowns, and that's probably even less directly derived from Italkim.

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