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Thread: Oldest Steppe Bell Beakers: Saxony-Anhalt, Germany

  1. #1481
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    Am oddly reminded of my childhood : )


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  3. #1482
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    It is funny someone says that central western europe has not a yamnaya package. Then why Gimbutas called Remedello a "kurganized" culture ( not Etrusco said that I said GIMBUTAS) . Why kurganized? Well because it had a kurgan-like package ( but not the kurgans themselves BTW) so what…. we cannot call that a steppe-like package ( 200 years before Yamna) only because they ( for now) turned out to be I2a? Funny
    The point of this thread is to find where the first Bell Beaker with L51 and the autosomal steppe component (EHG+CHG) came from. Following a "package" is useful, but only to a certain extent. Harping on the fact that some individual aspects of the kurgan package were found in the Europe prior to Yamanay may of may not be useful. Heck, some are not even Remedello innovations. For example, flexed burials with axes are as old as Linearbandkeramik... several thousand years earlier than Remedello!

    See here: http://www.sciencemag.org/sites/defa...?itok=roxer-AS

    So, what do we know for sure about the packages relevant to this thread (which I think most here have lost sight of):

    Innovative R-L51 Steppe Bell Beaker Package:
    1. Horse riding: There is clear osteopathic evidence for horse riding in a Czech Bell Beaker R-L2 male.
    2. Yersinia pestis: Some may argue that this should be first, but its spread would not have been as sudden if not for horse riding. Also, the Bronze Age strain was not one that could be carried by fleas.
    3. Bronze: It is often overlooked that Bronze is an alloy metal that is much harder than copper. In places like Britain, the Copper Age may have been skipped altogether.
    4. Brachycephalic, with flattened occiput skulls: Brachycephalic skulls are know in Copper Age Europe (Rinaldone, Seine–Oise–Marne etc.) but I've never seen them described as having flat occiputs like those found in Central European Bell Beaker skulls. If cradle boarding was to blame, I haven't seen it explained outside of the Central Bell Beaker context.
    5. Bow Shaped Pendants made of Boar's Tusks: Yes, boars tusk pendants are found in Early and Middle Neolithic Europe, but I haven't seen any that are made to look like bows like those found in Central European Bell Beaker.

    Horse riding and Yersinia pestis alone could have caused the major toppling of Copper Age Y-DNA groups from the Balkans all the way to Ireland.

    Borrowed R-L51 Steppe Bell Beaker Package:
    1. Flexed single grave, gender oriented burials
    2. Corded decoration on pottery: While not a Bell Beaker innovation, it could be that both Iberian Bell Beaker copied and Steppe Bell Beaker inherited the technique from Steppe derived groups. Iberian Bell Beaker could have copied it from Swiss and Alsacian Corded Ware groups and Steppe Bell Beaker from Corded Ware or Danubian Yamnaya.

    Unknown R-L51 Steppe Bell Beaker Package:
    1. Archer's wrist guards: Harrison & Heyd see is as a Central Bell Beaker innovation, but I don't know if that's just based on frequency or real radiocarbon dating. Yes, a couple of wrist guards do show up in Copper Age Iberian graves, but I don't know what their dating is either, and certainly Bell Beaker and non-Bell Beaker groups were contemporary in Iberia for quite some time.
    2. V-perforated buttons: If memory serves me correctly, pre-Bell Beaker v-perforated buttons existed in places as far away from each other as Iberia, Sicily and the Baltic. Again, no idea what the dating says.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 07-11-2018 at 07:58 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Bell Beaker East Group Warrior circa 2500 BC. (after Heyd 2000; drawing B. Richter)

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  5. #1483
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    . . .

    Innovative R-L51 Steppe Bell Beaker Package:
    1. Horse riding: There is clear osteopathic evidence for horse riding in a Czech Bell Beaker R-L2 male . . .
    Actually, two. There's the R1b-L2 you mentioned above (I6581), and the following from Quedlinburg, Germany, I have listed as R1b-M269 (but I think you or somebody else may have refined to R1b-L2, as well):

    I0805 / QLB26 Feature 19614. This 35-45 year-old individual is osteologically and genetically male. The body was buried in NO-SW orientation with the head in the north facing east. Grave goods are scarce and include three silex arrowheads, a few potsherds, and animal bones. A notable observation from the physical anthropological examination is traits at the acetabulum and the femur head suggesting that the individual frequently rode horses.
    You know you have to ride horses a lot for it to show up in your bones.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Actually, two. There's the R1b-L2 you mentioned above (I6581), and the following from Quedlinburg, Germany, I have listed as R1b-M269 (but I think you or somebody else may have refined to R1b-L2, as well):

    You know you have to ride horses a lot for it to show up in your bones.
    You are right, I forgot about I0805. He was PF6543+ which is a known L11 equivalent. He might also be PF6658+, but that is less certain.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Bell Beaker East Group Warrior circa 2500 BC. (after Heyd 2000; drawing B. Richter)

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  9. #1485
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    Quote Originally Posted by GASKA View Post
    . . .

    ATP3- El Portalón (3.516.3362 BC)- R1b M269- Formed positive for SNP-PF6518. This marker is one out of 105 that are phylogenetically equivalent to M269 (all living males M269 are also positive for PF6518 and 104 more markers). The mutations typical of this clade started to evolve (11.300 BC). Hence it is perfectly possible and logical that ATP3 may have had any marker between 1 and 105 of the markers that are equivalent to M269 (everyone knows that it has little amount of dna) . . .
    ATP3 was not R1b-M269.

    That has been said time and time again.

    Apparently you missed anglesqueville's post here, in which he analyzed ATP3's bam file.

    Now think for a minute.

    At the very best the claim that ATP3 was R1b-M269 is controversial (false, actually).

    If ATP3 were really M269+, shouldn't some more R1b-M269 be showing up in Iberia in subsequent samples from the period before the advent of Kurgan Bell Beaker and steppe dna?

    The fact that it's not is consistent with the fact that ATP3 was not M269.
    Last edited by rms2; 07-11-2018 at 08:51 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  11. #1486
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    You are right, I forgot about I0805. He was PF6543+ which is a known L11 equivalent. He might also be PF6658+, but that is less certain.
    Thanks. I've updated my entry for I0805 to R1b-PF6543 (L11).

    I wish researchers would examine all the Kurgan Bell Beaker and other skeletons from steppe and steppe-derived cultures for osteological evidence of horseback riding.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  13. #1487
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    Am oddly reminded of my childhood : )

    For me it is the sore tongue (am constantly biting it - or at least trying to)

    D

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    "Horse riding and Yersinia pestis alone could have caused the major toppling of Copper Age Y-DNA groups from the Balkans all the way to Ireland."

    This has to be one of the great red flags as to rapid de-population. The only challenge I see to it is that a lot of the evidence in regard to Steppes horsemen sweeping into Europe suggests that mtDNA was not greatly diminished. Otherwise the plague would have been my #1.

    D
    Last edited by dsm; 07-11-2018 at 11:27 PM.

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  17. #1489
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    "Horse riding and Yersinia pestis alone could have caused the major toppling of Copper Age Y-DNA groups from the Balkans all the way to Ireland."

    This has to be one of the great red flags as to rapid de-population. The only challenge I see to it is that a lot of the evidence in regard to Steppes horsement sweeping into Europe suggests that mtDNA was not greatly diminished. Otherwise the plague would have been my #1.

    D
    How would you detect diminished mtDNA in people who lived?
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  19. #1490
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    ATP3 was not R1b-M269.

    That has been said time and time again.

    Apparently you missed anglesqueville's post here, in which he analyzed ATP3's bam file.

    Now think for a minute.

    At the very best the claim that ATP3 was R1b-M269 is controversial (false, actually).

    If ATP3 were really M269+, shouldn't some more R1b-M269 be showing up in Iberia in subsequent samples from the period before the advent of Kurgan Bell Beaker and steppe dna?

    The fact that it's not is consistent with the fact that ATP3 was not M269.
    ATP3 was R1b M269, but I agree that it is controversial (not false).

    Keep calm, it's true, that in Iberia, at the moment, no more cases of R1b-M269 line have been found until the discoveries of Olalde (2.275 BC). That is why I have to admit that we can not demonstrate a genetic continuity between M269 and P312. That is why the archaelogists and geneticits are looking for interesting sites that can solve the question. Meanwhile, obviously you can think what you want (even that ATP3 is false), and I will continue thinking that may be if we look in the right place we can take a pleasant surprise. We are not in a hurry, and you have to take for granted, that what we find we will share with you.

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