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Thread: Oldest Steppe Bell Beakers: Saxony-Anhalt, Germany

  1. #1731
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    These "articles" (blog posts) you have linked lately are interesting, and relevant to the thread topic. They seem to be pretty much the solo work of Carlos Quiles -- who has posted here, but seldom, and I think not lately. (Possibly because he now runs his own forum, in four western European languages.) Personally, I like the broad-brush approach he takes, and his numerous, sequential, large-area maps. He has been accused here on Anthrogenica of mental instability, by a frequent poster who is about equally manic and opinionated. For all I know, one of them might be right, more often than the other; but I have no strong reason to think the more correct one is the more "stable" one. Whatever. A lot of good work and creative approaches have come from people who are off their meds, high on something, drunk, bearers of OCD or bipolar disorder. Good work is good work. Incivility can get you kicked off the forum, but wild or improbable ideas as such shouldn't. They may force us to rethink things, help rms2 stay awake, etc.
    Carlos doesn't produce good work. He pretends that he knows about genetics and statistics, but he obviously doesn't and often just makes things up as he goes along.

    This is easy to demonstrate and I will do so if he keeps annoying me. And it'll be so straightforward and clear that even you will understand it.
    Last edited by Generalissimo; 08-10-2018 at 04:12 AM.

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  5. #1733
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    Carlos has a thing for wild, inchoate, and utterly insensible theories.

    His R1b-V88 of MegaChad = proto-Afroasiatics theory is but one of several.

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  7. #1734
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    Among other people missing is Genetiker: last activity was on the 31st of March... then nothing else. I'm worried: too many months passed and no sign of activity by him.
    Sadly, he went into my waste bin when he failed to explain his analysis that claimed S1194 for one Olalde find. In fact he hasn't been heard of since we questioned him on that particular analysis, on his own blog ( we asked in the nicest possible way).

    D

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  9. #1735
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    Quiles seems pretty divisive because of his frequent thinly veiled digs at R1a bearers, as biased against his models.

    That said, I do think his related theory of a split between Indo-Uralic into R1a proto-Corded Ware, proto-Uralic and R1b proto-Corded Ware, proto-Indo-European, from an Indo-Uralic proto language, is probably wrong. And this is almost solely where he seems to depart from repeating orthodox steppe urheimat theory; everything else seems pretty unremarkable standard steppe urheimat stuff (and so hard to call "mentally ill" in any way tbh).

    I am skeptical of the seemingly ersatz language tree that he has constructed to support his hypothesis (of course, it will fit beautifully with your theories, if you have constructed it simultaneously to do so...!). Particularly, I do not think that anyone has the impression that Indo-European languages and Uralic are only a little bit more diverged from each other than the internal divisions within IE, which seems to be what is implied by his tree and how he maps it to archaeological cultures.

    It seems more likely that the earliest proto-Corded Ware were proto-Indo-European speaking (late pIE even).

    However, to go on a bit of a tangent, probably then it does seem likely to me that at least some people in the later developed Corded Ware horizon adopted Uralic languages quite early.

    We know that 1) present day Uralic speakers look structurally as like the could be descended from Corded Ware as other East Europeans on their same geography, 2) Indo-European and Uralic are supposed to share structural similarities and evidence of contact at the earliest stages of formation of IE (and in my mind one of the more signficiant problems for the steppe hypothesis if this were not true) and 3) Uralic remains in contact with proto-Indo-Iranian languages.

    We also know from adna that the low level East Eurasian ancestry that present-day Uralic speakers have also was in no way atypical for likely Iron Age Indo-European speakers of Western Steppe and Central Asia - the sole difference being those IE speakers were replaced by Turko-Mongolic peoples and languages. We know from adna that the N1c haplogroups that might have been considered to come from an East Eurasian elite migration were probably cosmopolitan across North Eurasia from ANE->Northeast Eurasian groups. So there is no need for any of the postulated proto-Uralic migration from an heavily autosomally East Eurasian elite (an idea with was certainly about in the blog sphere from the late '00s to early '10s). And likely the only elite male biased East Eurasian migrations across Eurasia are the early historical ones we know about, of Turkic and Mongolic peoples (linked to O and C y-haplogroups), who were at a stage of culture and technology that allowed them to do so, and which clearly happened.

    (I think this, on proto-Uralic, is all similar to what has been articulated before, and possibly better, by some comments by Ryukendo.)

    So while I think Quiles is wrong on his "hard" division of Corded Ware=Uralic=R1a and Yamnaya=Indo-European=R1b, probably is true that some Corded Ware went from Indo-European->Uralic very early and probably some back again from Uralic->IE later.

  10. #1736
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    Thought I'd add my comments re David Reich's book 'Who we are and how we got here' am still early into the book but can say that the detail he goes into just in the 1St part when he talks about matching Neaderthaler DNA to AMH (anotomically modern humans) is quite deep but despite its depth lets us know just how precise his and his collegues research was and is.

    What is starting to come through very well is the professionalism of him and his peers. He admits to starting out convinced that Neanderthalers had not bred with AMH and how this was the orthodox view held by leading researchers, but again and again the data said otherwise. Then at a conference he met another researcher who was struggling with particular DNA traces that weren't showing in Africans and clearly were older than the o-o-A events. He was able to confirm that AMH who were not of African origin, had 1.7 to 2.1 trace DNA that proved to be Neanderthaler. Repeat Africans don't have it.

    They were able to eventually extract good Neanderthaler DNA from a Croatian cave find. They were able to work out that this person was about 8 generations decended from a Neanderthaler. Quite a stunning achievement.

    More later when am further through it.

    D

  11. #1737
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterne View Post
    Quiles seems pretty divisive because of his frequent thinly veiled digs at R1a bearers, as biased against his models.

    That said, I do think his related theory of a split between Indo-Uralic into R1a proto-Corded Ware, proto-Uralic and R1b proto-Corded Ware, proto-Indo-European, from an Indo-Uralic proto language, is probably wrong. And this is almost solely where he seems to depart from repeating orthodox steppe urheimat theory; everything else seems pretty unremarkable standard steppe urheimat stuff (and so hard to call "mentally ill" in any way tbh).
    No, it's not.

    Have you seen his attempt at "statistics"? He claimed that the Yamnaya-like Baltic Corded Ware sample in Jones et al. was a statistical artifact. And when more samples of this type were presented in Mittnik et al., he claimed that this actually confirmed his argument.

    This is not something a mentally stable person would claim. A mentally stable person would be very embarrassed, and would not only admit that they don't know what a statistical artifact really is, but would also apologize to their readers.

    Apart from that I've had e-mail exchanges with this guy, and in my opinion he's crazy.

    P.S. How about his excuses that he can't run any genetic analyses because his computer is busy? Haha.
    Last edited by Generalissimo; 08-10-2018 at 09:45 AM.

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  13. #1738
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    This is easy to demonstrate and I will do so if he keeps annoying me. And it'll be so straightforward and clear that even you will understand it.
    Well, meow to you too. I've aimed for simplicity and clarity, since I got past my dissertation committee 40 years ago and no longer had to do the "academic abstraction" tapdance (unless I really wanted to). Straightforward and clear would be good. Not very nice, but easier to skim through.

  14. #1739
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    I'm not a big fan of Carlos Quiles. I'm not sure who he reminds me of, but he reminds me of someone (or more than one person) from a ways back. I don't want to be too critical, but his ideas seem to be tenuous (not to mention tedious), extensive, and require too many twists and turns. And I don't think R1a was Uralic.

    I am not so patiently waiting for R1b-L51 (and probably R1b-P312) in Yamnaya, and R1a, too.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I'm not a big fan of Carlos Quiles. I'm not sure who he reminds me of, but he reminds me of someone (or more than one person) from a ways back. I don't want to be too critical, but his ideas seem to be tenuous (not to mention tedious), extensive, and require too many twists and turns. And I don't think R1a was Uralic.

    I am not so patiently waiting for R1b-L51 (and probably R1b-P312) in Yamnaya, and R1a, too.
    he is equal to all the others.....all use selective sampling to justify their claims

    European = 99.2%............Central Asian = 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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