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Thread: Oldest Steppe Bell Beakers: Saxony-Anhalt, Germany

  1. #971
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I wasn't talking about banning people; I was talking about you being too nice to trolls. I just don't feel inclined to thank them.

    Sorry if that makes me a cranky old bastard. Guess that's what I am.
    Perhaps a good glass of Kentucky bourbon is needed - LOL

    Doug (a reformed 'cranky old bastard')

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    Perhaps a good glass of Kentucky bourbon is needed - LOL

    Doug (a reformed 'cranky old bastard')
    Not a bad suggestion. I just don't like to see what began as a really interesting thread started by a guy who knows what he is talking about devolve into another descent into 2007 La-La Land.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    ...Sorry if that makes me a cranky old bastard. Guess that's what I am.
    Bell beaker in Saxony-Anhalt Germany blah blah blah Danube vs Carpathian route blah blah blah (You are a cranky old bastard because you teach in the public school system) blah blah blah similar arrowheads in Ukraine blah blah blah.

    (Had to throw in something relevant to the thread to avoid being hypocritical)
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 06-13-2018 at 11:43 PM.

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    Regarding the term Kurgan Bell Beaker, which as far as I know I am the only one using, I think it is useful to differentiate between the steppe-derived, pastoralist people who had steppe dna and were mostly R1b-P312 and the Neolithic farmer types of Iberia who had neither steppe dna nor R1b-P312 and who are alleged to have been the earliest Bell Beaker people.

    If those Neolithic Iberians were really Bell Beaker people, which in the fullest sense of the term I doubt, then obviously there were at least two very different kinds of Bell Beaker people.

    I took the term from the following brief quote on page 391 of Gimbutas' book, The Civilization of the Goddess:

    Quote Originally Posted by Marija Gimbutas
    The striking similarity of burial practices ties the Bell Beaker complex to the Kurgan (Late Yamna) tradition.
    One can call the steppe-derived, pastoralist Bell Beaker people Steppe Bell Beaker, but there is no indication the Beaker people were actually from the steppe. Instead they were the offspring or descendants of steppe pastoralists, so I think Kurgan Bell Beaker is more accurate.

    I realize because I came up with the term, no one is likely to adopt it, for various reasons, and that's okay. I find it helpful, so I will continue to use it.

    It seems to me a number of people are highly critical of Gimbutas who really have never read anything she wrote.
    Last edited by rms2; 06-14-2018 at 12:27 AM.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Bell beaker in Saxony-Anhalt Germany blah blah blah Danube vs Carpathian route blah blah blah (You are a cranky old bastard because you teach in the public school system) blah blah blah similar arrowheads in Ukraine blah blah blah.

    (Had to throw in something relevant to the thread to avoid being hypocritical)
    Nothing makes a good teacher crankier than when they offer the best current knowledge, the best known details, sound logic, very well supported evidence - yet the student fails to pick it up and argues back.

    A challenge to one's own 'Raison d'etre'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Regarding the term Kurgan Bell Beaker...

    I realize because I came up with the term, no one is likely to adopt it, for various reasons, and that's okay.
    I think the original assertion (by you) that there was such a thing was on this date, if not necessarily this thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post254926

    Anyway, "Kurgan Bell Beaker" has been kicking around for most of a year (although those useful threads keep getting shut down). And the only part of the crowd seriously arguing with you, after a year, are the fans out in the left field bleachers.

    Cranky old bastards are sometimes right. I'm only eight years younger than your late dad, and maybe a teensy bit cranky myself. Being a card-carrying COB, I've been known to argue with you, too -- but when you're right, you're right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    Nothing makes a good teacher crankier than when they offer the best current knowledge, the best known details, sound logic, very well supported evidence - yet the student fails to pick it up and argues back.

    A challenge to one's own 'Raison d'etre'.
    Better yet, they pick it up, and then argue back. That's the whole point of teaching something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Regarding the term Kurgan Bell Beaker, which as far as I know I am the only one using, I think it is useful to differentiate between the steppe-derived, pastoralist people who had steppe dna and were mostly R1b-P312 and the Neolithic farmer types of Iberia who had neither steppe dna nor R1b-P312 and who are alleged to have been the earliest Bell Beaker people.

    If those Neolithic Iberians were really Bell Beaker people, which in the fullest sense of the term I doubt, then obviously there were at least two very different kinds of Bell Beaker people.

    I took the term from the following brief quote on page 391 of Gimbutas' book, The Civilization of the Goddess:

    One can call the steppe-derived, pastoralist Bell Beaker people Steppe Bell Beaker, but there is no indication the Beaker people were actually from the steppe. Instead they were the offspring or descendants of steppe pastoralists, so I think Kurgan Bell Beaker is more accurate.

    I realize because I came up with the term, no one is likely to adopt it, for various reasons, and that's okay. I find it helpful, so I will continue to use it.

    It seems to me a number of people are highly critical of Gimbutas who really have never read anything she wrote.
    I choose to use "Steppe Bell Beaker" instead of "Kurgan Bell Beaker" for several reasons. First, the majority of Central European Bell Beaker skeletons are buried under flat graves, not kurgans. Also, the word "steppe" is the common term used by academia for the autosomal component spread by Yamnaya. Some kurgans along the Danube may not even have the steppe component. In these discussions, the genetic term "steppe" is clearer than the archaeological term "kurgan" IMO. Lastly, the word "kurgan" conjures up a lot of unnecessary debate about how right/wrong Gimbutas was.

    We know rms2 that you have a pin-up poster of Gimbutas hanging in your garage, so I get why you use the term kurgan! Hahahaha... just teasing bud. We'll have to get together again for another Guinness next time I'm in your neck of the woods and you can bust my chops as well!
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    Avatar: Bell Beaker East Group Warrior circa 2500 BC. (after Heyd 2000; drawing B. Richter)

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    I think some of the flat graves weren't flat to begin with.

    We'll have to disagree about which term is best. I see Kurgan as representing a suite of characteristics, while steppe is primarily a term of geography. Oh, well.

    Your point about Gimbutas is well taken, though. The term Kurgan Bell Beaker will never be adopted primarily because so many people don't like Gimbutas, or they don't like what they think they know about Gimbutas, which in some cases isn't much, because they have not read anything she wrote (I'm not talking about you, Rich; I know you have read Gimbutas).
    Last edited by rms2; 06-14-2018 at 05:31 PM.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I think some of the flat graves weren't flat to begin with.

    We'll have to disagree about which term is best. I see Kurgan as representing a suite of characteristics, while steppe is primarily a term of geography. Oh, well.

    Your point about Gimbutas is well taken, though. The term Kurgan Bell Beaker will never be adopted primarily because so many people don't like Gimbutas, or they don't like what they think they know about Gimbutas, which in some cases isn't much, because they have not read anything she wrote (I'm not talking about you, Rich; I know you have read Gimbutas).

    Speaking about kurgan I found this on the net....

    https://youtu.be/qIQ0pNlbvL0


    Here is a confrontation between KBB and iberian bell beaker.......


    https://youtu.be/nWbuYAKiXvE


    Then a confrontation between KBB and atlantic megalithism ( seems pretty much Newgrange!!!)

    https://youtu.be/_j6_H-PSml0

    Come on after some tensions let us have a good laugh and self-irony!!!

    Just to remind myself ( and maybe most of you) how much I miss the eighties!
    Last edited by etrusco; 06-14-2018 at 08:01 PM.

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