Page 3 of 185 FirstFirst 123451353103 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 1848

Thread: Oldest Steppe Bell Beakers: Saxony-Anhalt, Germany

  1. #21
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Remember when we were waiting for the Olalde et al big Bell Beaker behemoth (for over a year, I think)? At least we had word ahead of time that it was coming.

    Too bad we don't have similar word of a big behemoth paper on the Indo-Europeans-into-Europe story. Wonder if I'll live to see such a thing.

    Guess I should be glad for what we have, because I never really thought we would see it, and Olalde et al vindicated what a number of us having been arguing - against great odds - for a long time. What we've found out about Steppe Bell Beaker is really exciting and gratifying. I am grateful for it.

  2. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     ajc347 (03-28-2018),  jdean (03-28-2018),  JMcB (03-29-2018),  kostoffj (03-28-2018),  R.Rocca (03-28-2018)

  3. #22
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    When I saw this thread I really got excited and was hoping it would take off. I still hope some other folks will jump in and contribute (but without the aggravating R1b-didn't-come-from-the-steppe schtick).

  4. #23
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Razyn just announced over in a thread in the ancient dna subforum that Jean Manco passed away this past Sunday, 25 March 2018, in hospice care. I knew she had cancer for some time and that she was in hospice care, but she asked me not to say anything, so I kept quiet about it.

    I mention it here because Jean was an early advocate of a steppe/Indo-European origin for R1b-M269, back when it took some guts to advocate for that. She was brilliant, and I considered her a good friend, even though I only knew her via the internet (but since 2006).

    We have lost a real giant and a great friend.

    Atque vale, soror!

  5. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     haynz79 (03-30-2018),  jdean (03-29-2018),  JMcB (03-29-2018),  Melstrom (03-29-2018),  Mikewww (04-03-2018),  palamede (03-29-2018),  R.Rocca (03-28-2018),  Romilius (03-29-2018),  Webb (03-29-2018)

  6. #24
    Registered Users
    Posts
    735
    Sex
    Omitted
    Ethnicity
    NW European
    Nationality
    Welsh
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U106>Z306
    mtDNA (M)
    H13a1a
    mtDNA (P)
    H3a1

    European Union England Ireland Ireland Munster Ireland Leinster Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    When I saw this thread I really got excited and was hoping it would take off. I still hope some other folks will jump in and contribute (but without the aggravating R1b-didn't-come-from-the-steppe schtick).
    I don't have anything to contribute except moral support and to say keep going any time you have new ideas.

    Off-topic but my Eurogenes K15 4-way oracle came to mind when viewing the migration map you posted.

    1 Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian + Romanian @ 4.520121

    No need to reply, keep your thread on track.
    Known ancestry: 53.1 SW England, 29.7 SW Ireland, 6.3 SE Ireland, 6.3 SW Wales, 3.1 NW Ireland (?), 1.6 NW England
    Y-DNA (P): Wiltshire; mtDNA (M): West Cork; mtDNA (P): Limerick
    Avatar is my 62.5% Somerset/37.5% Wiltshire grandfather as a baby with his elder siblings, circa 1924. Colourised at MyHeritage.

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Capitalis For This Useful Post:

     jdean (03-29-2018),  rms2 (03-28-2018)

  8. #25
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation
    Posts
    853
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Italian

    Italy
    I think, but I surely am wrong, that some CW groups were heavily or totally R1b, both Z2103 and L11/L51.

  9. #26
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,752
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    I may be reading this wrong, but it seems like the Budzhak Culture develops as a result of interactions between the already established Corded Ware Sub-Carpathian Group and Late Yamnaya. The importance of archery equipment in graves begins in the Kraków-Sandomierz Corded Ware group in PhaseIIIA. This phase is dated to 2550-2450 BC, which is slightly younger than Bleckendorf and the Kromsdorf R-M343+ samples. The Zlota Culture, a Corded Ware-GAC hybrid group also heavily decorates their graves with archery equipment. Again, the issue is with the heavy R1a (and even some I2a2) in Corded Ware groups.

    The archery conversation reminded me of the Göhlitzsch Corded Ware stone. Interestingly, Göhlitzsch is (you guessed it) in Saxony-Anhalt about 13 miles away from the oldest Bell Beaker samples. This is what Jan Turek had to say about the site:

    The Bell Beaker depiction of a bow on the figural grave stone (157 cm high, 85 cm wide) from Petit Chasseur (Gallay 2011) has a predecessor in the Corded Ware tomb interior incised decoration from Leuna-Göhlitzsch (Merseburg District) showing a bow and quiver arrows (194 cm long, 95 cm wide; see Behrens 1973, Probst 1991, 403).
    If it is not clear from the picture, the quiver is the triangle like shape on the left and is full of arrows. A very small battle axe can be seen between the quiver and the left edge of the bow. Although the tomb may have been used as early by the TRB derived Salzmünde (3400-3000 BC) and/or Bernburg (3100-2700 BC) Cultures, the chamber finds - an amphora, a faceted battle axe, as well as a copper ring and a flint blade - all belong to the Corded Ware Culture. The image of the axe on another stone in the cave also represents a Corded Ware axe.

    Last edited by R.Rocca; 03-29-2018 at 01:55 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     rms2 (03-29-2018),  Romilius (03-29-2018)

  11. #27
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    As I understand it, Budzhak first arose on the NW coast of the Black Sea and did not come into contact with Corded Ware and GAC until it moved north along the Prut River valley. I could be wrong, but it seems more likely to me that the Kraków-Sandomierz Corded Ware group picked up the habit of depositing archery equipment in burials from Budzhak or Steppe Bell Beaker than the other way around, since that practice was not general in Corded Ware, but we would have to know who was actually doing it first.

    Clearly Budzhak practiced a different burial rite than Corded Ware. Budzhak buried its important men crouched on their left sides, like Steppe Bell Beaker, often in stone-lined cists (also like Steppe Bell Beaker). Most CW burials had a right side crouched posture for men, although I understand Zlota CW sometimes used stone-lined cist burials, as well.

    Until we get some dna from the likely suspects, we won't know for sure.

  12. #28
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,752
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    As I understand it, Budzhak first arose on the NW coast of the Black Sea and did not come into contact with Corded Ware and GAC until it moved north along the Prut River valley. I could be wrong, but it seems more likely to me that the Kraków-Sandomierz Corded Ware group picked up the habit of depositing archery equipment in burials from Budzhak or Steppe Bell Beaker than the other way around, since that practice was not general in Corded Ware, but we would have to know who was actually doing it first.

    Clearly Budzhak practiced a different burial rite than Corded Ware. Budzhak buried its important men crouched on their left sides, like Steppe Bell Beaker, often in stone-lined cists (also like Steppe Bell Beaker). Most CW burials had a right side crouched posture for men, although I understand Zlota CW sometimes used stone-lined cist burials, as well.

    Until we get some dna from the likely suspects, we won't know for sure.
    That's why I brought it up, because the Saxony-Anhalt dates seem too old for the sequence to have been Budzhak Culture -> Kraków-Sandomierz Corded Ware -> Saxony-Anhalt Bell Beaker. Either way, Włodarczak attributes the custom of equipping the burials with quivers full of arrows to the Middle Dnieper Culture.

    A direct Budzhak Culture -> Steppe Bell Beaker movement seems to also have a problem of dating, because Steppe Bell Beaker seems to be older in Central Europe than in Eastern Europe. So, those movements still need those Great Hungarian Plains Yamnaya to be L11. If they got there via the north, we run into Corded Ware and the R1a problem. If they got there via the Danube we run into the Z2103 and additional haplogroups problem. I wonder if they used the intermediate Transylvania option and that way kept their L11 group unmixed. Handled pitchers are also seen in Transylvanian Yamnaya. From there they could have moved onto the Tisza River basin before moving further west via the Danube.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 03-29-2018 at 04:24 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  13. #29
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,752
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    By the way, the Alkaliya quiver set burial is referenced in the Ivanova paper due to its flint axe which has close Corded Ware parallels. It was not included to highlight the importance of archery equipment in Budzhak. In fact, the Alkaliya burial is very far away from the Corded Ware interaction zone. In other publications it is simply referred to as a Yamnaya burial (see Map 2). Quiver burials are rare in Yamnaya, but explode during the Catacomb Culture period (Map 3).

    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Finn (03-29-2018)

  15. #30
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Maybe Budzhak isn't the answer, but it's old enough to be right. And Alkaliya being far from the CW interaction zone is all the better, because it is in the Budzhak home zone near the Black Sea and is not a CW copycat. If it were, the man buried there wouldn't be crouched on his left side in a stone-lined pit. Crouched burials in stone-lined pits under a round mound were typical of Mikhailovka-Kemi Oba on the Black Sea coast, as well, and those people were probably the ancestors of the Budzhak people.

    Budzhak needn't have been stopped by CW if it came through Malopolska to central Europe. It might also have come via the up-the-Prut-down-the-Tisza route to the Hungarian Plain.

    I'm just hunting for some answers, and they aren't easy to come by.

Page 3 of 185 FirstFirst 123451353103 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b
    By Piquerobi in forum R1b General
    Replies: 4847
    Last Post: 11-12-2017, 01:09 PM
  2. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 08-29-2016, 09:59 PM
  3. R1b Bell Beakers, Autosomal and Maternal DNA
    By R.Rocca in forum R1b General
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 07-17-2015, 11:37 PM
  4. Conference of Jan Turek about Bell Beakers
    By Bernard in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-30-2013, 02:14 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •