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Thread: Central and South Asian DNA Paper

  1. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by homosapien View Post
    According to the paper first they were Tamil like and then became Kashmiri like .

    In Summary: In fact they mention that between 4000-1000BC all people in South Asia including Pakistan were Modern Tamil like genetically and in between the dates of 2000-1000BC some cattle herding folks from Central Asia came in and turned them into the variety like we see in Modern India today. You can believe it or leave it they think they have proved it.

    And the sample which closely correlates with modern Tamil is declared as an outlier by the study, because they do not know whether he or his ancestors escaped the cattle herders or he recently moved in to Swat Valley from somewhere South of that place as it is clearly outside that 2000-1000BC date range. So its all speculation about it.
    Could you link me to where they said this

    What are you going to do when Rakhigarhi ends up looking like the Tamil sample? They moved from South India? outlier?

    I'm guessing you still believe the Onge are substantially Iran_N?

    I dont think you read the paper properly, possibly to conform with your previous beliefs. The paper states that the outliers resemble 41 Swat samples, and that they are outliers to Gonur and Shahr I Sokhta, not Swat.

    Third, between 3100-2200 BCE we observe an outlier at the BMAC site of Gonur, as well as two
    277 outliers from the eastern Iranian site of Shahr-i-Sokhta, all with an ancestry profile similar to 41
    278 ancient individuals from northern Pakistan who lived approximately a millennium later in the
    279 isolated Swat region of the northern Indus Valley (1200-800 BCE).
    These individuals had
    280 between 14-42% of their ancestry related to the AASI and the rest related to early Iranian
    281 agriculturalists and West_Siberian_HG.


    Instead, Steppe communities integrated farther south throughout the 2nd millennium BCE, and we show that they mixed with a more southern population that we document at multiple sites as outlier individuals exhibiting a distinctive mixture of ancestry related to Iranian agriculturalists and South Asian hunter-gathers.We call this group Indus Periphery because they were found at sites in cultural contact with the Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) and along its northern fringe, and also because they were genetically similar to post-IVC groups in the Swat Valley of Pakistan. By co-analyzing ancient DNA and genomic data from diverse present-day South Asians, we show that Indus Periphery-related people are the single most important source of ancestry in South Asia — consistent with the idea that the Indus Periphery individuals are providing us with the first direct look at the ancestry of peoples of the IVC

    The paper suggests these Tamil-like samples were Indus peoples moving north from Swat.

    The paper also suggests that they are the single most important source of ancestry in South Asia, which is true for most modern South Asians except those on the frontier regions.

    Nmontes confirm this, so has Razibs modelling where most South Asians are modelled as majority modern Tamil: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=2076417393

    Like pegasus said, these people are still found relatively unmixed in the form of Gujarati Patels, Dravidian agriculturalist castes and Punjabi PJL samples

    Over to you
    Last edited by bmoney; 05-04-2018 at 05:18 AM.
    Ancients nmonte: [1] "distance%=2.8958": Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,82.2, Sintashta_MLBA,17.8

    SC Asian ancients with the same uniparental lines:
    Y-dna: BMAC Bustan_BA K1a1 L1a, BMAC Sappali_Tepe_BA U7a3 L1a, Pakistan_IA_Aligrama_all L1a, Loebanr_IA_father T2g1 L1a, SPGT Loebanr_IA L1a, SPGT Loebanr_IA R30b1 L1a, SPGT Loebanr_IA L1a, Saidu Sharif_IA R6b L1a
    Mtdna: Butkara_IA M30b J1, Butkara_IA M30b, Udegram_IA M30+16234, Saidu_Sharif_IA M30, Saidu_Sharif_IA M30d1

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    No, AASI increases over time to a point. These early Antiquity ones are not so Steppe rich. The current populations there though have lower AASI and are way more Steppe shifted, which means there was massive demic diffusions. The urban Tamil/Vellama types will be found east of the Indus for sure as modern day Punjabi Chamars/Dalits are very much similar, west of the Indus the populations are largely dominated by Iranian farmer ancestry even to this day, after Brahui/Baloch/Sindhi its peaking with groups like Kalash/Nuristani and even groups of Pashtuns . The cattle used in SC Asia and Northern Pakistan are largely Taurids and Taurid/Zebu hybrids, but domestication of these cattle occurred with Chalcolithic Iranians who spread into Central Asia in the late Eneolithic/Early Bronze Age. Domestication of Zebus occurs independently.
    When you say current populations have much more steppe ancestry which ones are you referring to ?

    The modern day groups such as Jats, Rors, Kamboj, Khatri, Gujjar which dominate NW India are closer to populations to their west such as Pashtuns and more distant to groups like Chamars, Dharkars etc. Infact Rors and Jats are even closer to Pamiris then to some of their nearby populations.

    So the populations East and west of Indus are quite close to each other reflecting their deep shared ancestry since the time of the Indus civilization.

    Populations further inland in Uttar Pradesh are more AASI shifted.

    The dominant cattle in all of Pakistan and SC Asia is Zebu and it is the native cattle. Infact, Zebu dominates even in Eastern Iran. As far as I know there is no evidence of Taurine cattle in Copper Age Central Asia.

    And there was no domestication of cattle in Chalcolithic Iran. The Taurine cattle was domesticated in Anatolia Neolithic while the the Zebu was domesticated in Neolithic South Asia. There was no other independent domestication.

    In the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age there was clearly a migration from South Asia into Eastern Iran and Central Asia which led to South Asian Zebu spread in to those regions. There is likely to have been limited backflow from these regions into South Asia but the overwhelming flow was from South Asia outwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Immchr View Post
    When you say current populations have much more steppe ancestry which ones are you referring to ?

    The modern day groups such as Jats, Rors, Kamboj, Khatri, Gujjar which dominate NW India are closer to populations to their west such as Pashtuns and more distant to groups like Chamars, Dharkars etc. Infact Rors and Jats are even closer to Pamiris then to some of their nearby populations.

    So the populations East and west of Indus are quite close to each other reflecting their deep shared ancestry since the time of the Indus civilization.

    Populations further inland in Uttar Pradesh are more AASI shifted.

    The dominant cattle in all of Pakistan and SC Asia is Zebu and it is the native cattle. Infact, Zebu dominates even in Eastern Iran. As far as I know there is no evidence of Taurine cattle in Copper Age Central Asia.

    And there was no domestication of cattle in Chalcolithic Iran. The Taurine cattle was domesticated in Anatolia Neolithic while the the Zebu was domesticated in Neolithic South Asia. There was no other independent domestication.

    In the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age there was clearly a migration from South Asia into Eastern Iran and Central Asia which led to South Asian Zebu spread in to those regions. There is likely to have been limited backflow from these regions into South Asia but the overwhelming flow was from South Asia outwards.
    The current populations living in Swat are Pashtuns now. Zebus in SC/C Asian climate???? Only hybrids could survive in that climate. Chalcolithic Iran evolved out of the Spread of Halaf farming , part of that included cattle, thats widely understood.


    Overall, palaeogenetic together with archaeological and archaeozoological data strongly support the following scenario: taurine cattle were domesticated in a region between Southeastern Anatolia and the Zagros Mountains, Syria and the Lebanon.


    Haplotype diversity clearly decreases in a southeast to northwest direction with Iran 7,000-5,000 BCE (0.96) at the high end, and Southern France 5,500-4,500 BCE (0.00) and Central/Western Europe 5,400-4,400 BCE (0.22) at the low end. The haplotype diversity of the earliest domesticated cattle on the European continent in Southeastern Europe 6,200-5,500 BCE (0.62) is much lower than in Iran

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4445560/

    This was found from very ancient domesticated cattle remains in Iran lol. South Eastern Iran was very much connected with the IVC but that occurs much later.
    Last edited by pegasus; 05-04-2018 at 12:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    The current populations living in Swat are Pashtuns now. Zebus in SC/C Asian climate???? Only hybrids could survive in that climate. Chalcolithic Iran evolved out of the Spread of Halaf farming , part of that included cattle, thats widely understood.


    Overall, palaeogenetic together with archaeological and archaeozoological data strongly support the following scenario: taurine cattle were domesticated in a region between Southeastern Anatolia and the Zagros Mountains, Syria and the Lebanon.


    Haplotype diversity clearly decreases in a southeast to northwest direction with Iran 7,000-5,000 BCE (0.96) at the high end, and Southern France 5,500-4,500 BCE (0.00) and Central/Western Europe 5,400-4,400 BCE (0.22) at the low end. The haplotype diversity of the earliest domesticated cattle on the European continent in Southeastern Europe 6,200-5,500 BCE (0.62) is much lower than in Iran

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4445560/

    This was found from very ancient domesticated cattle remains in Iran lol. South Eastern Iran was very much connected with the IVC but that occurs much later.
    You do not seem to know that unlike the Taurine cattle the Zebu is hard wired to survive in harsh arid climates. Perhaps you should read this

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...AC35B6720EC9CC

    You also do not seem to be aware of the fact that the early Zagros farmers were mostly goat herders and the Taurine cattle reached them only around 5500 BC

    https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/ma...016_cattle.pdf

  7. #775
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immchr View Post
    You do not seem to know that unlike the Taurine cattle the Zebu is hard wired to survive in harsh arid climates. Perhaps you should read this

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...AC35B6720EC9CC

    You also do not seem to be aware of the fact that the early Zagros farmers were mostly goat herders and the Taurine cattle reached them only around 5500 BC

    https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/ma...016_cattle.pdf
    Are you high ? Neolithic and Chalcolithic Iran are significantly different from each other. Last time I checked Zebus don't thrive in snowy and alpine climates they are great in tropical and drought prone regions, which is why they do well in Sub Saharan African and South America.
    Last edited by pegasus; 05-04-2018 at 01:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Are you high ? Neolithic and Chalcolithic Iran are significantly different from each other. Last time I checked Zebus don't thrive in snowy and alpine climates they are great in tropical and drought prone regions, which is why they do well in Sub Saharan African and South America.
    Haven't been high for a long time but I cannot be so sure about you.

    I gave you links. Can you atleast show me the courtesy of going through them ? Come back after that and we shall discuss. If you cannot bother to do that there is no point of this discussion.

  9. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immchr View Post
    Haven't been high for a long time but I cannot be so sure about you.

    I gave you links. Can you atleast show me the courtesy of going through them ? Come back after that and we shall discuss. If you cannot bother to do that there is no point of this discussion.
    I cannot reason with buffoonery, if you want to be the PR for Zebus by all means. This is my last post to you I have added you to my ignore list, congrats!

  10. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by homosapien View Post
    According to the paper first they were Tamil like and then became Kashmiri like .

    In Summary: In fact they mention that between 4000-1000BC all people in South Asia including Pakistan were Modern Tamil like genetically and in between the dates of 2000-1000BC some cattle herding folks from Central Asia came in and turned them into the variety like we see in Modern India today. You can believe it or leave it they think they have proved it.

    And the sample which closely correlates with modern Tamil is declared as an outlier by the study, because they do not know whether he or his ancestors escaped the cattle herders or he recently moved in to Swat Valley from somewhere South of that place as it is clearly outside that 2000-1000BC date range. So its all speculation about it.
    Aren't both of these samples from the same time period, i.e 500-300 BCE?

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    As far I know, The hereditary arrangement of Central and South Asian populaces has been hazy in view of a nonappearance of antiquated DNA. To address this hole, we created far reaching information from 362 antiquated people, including the first from eastern Iran, Turan

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