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Thread: Central and South Asian DNA Paper

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernekar View Post
    The hajji firuz site is known for having well preserved archaeological layers on the grave-side of the burial mound.
    The R1b-M269 guy was found in the 'sub'-grave 'K10', which lied buried neatly under well documented layers we can date by looking at pottery and other finds in those layers.
    Besides, his grave lied in the same burial mound as graves 'F10' and 'F11', which were the graves with the J2b samples(and those 2 are C14 dated)

    Of course C14 would be a plus, but chances that the current dating is false are low, close to 0%. Unless the april fools factor plays in of course.
    The chances are pretty good that this is an Iron Age sample, since it's the only one of the Hajji Firuz samples that wasn't C14 dated, and it just happens to have the same Y-hg as an Iron Age sample from a few miles away: Iran_IA F38.

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  3. #82
    I don't know. It appears to be a bin ossuary burial, which is Neolithic here, but we will wait and see.
    Last edited by WillNotBeCensored; 04-01-2018 at 01:53 AM.

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  5. #83
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    Hajji Firuz (I2327) R1b calls:

    R1b-1 derived call
    R1b1-2 derived calls
    R1b1a-4 derived calls
    R1b1c-2 ancestral calls
    R1b1a2-1 derived call
    R1b1a1a(R1b-P297)- 5 derived calls
    R1b1a2b-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2 (R1b-M269)-9 derived calls
    R1b1a1a2a1-1 ancestral calls
    R1b1a1a2a2 (R1b-Z2103) -3 derived calls
    R1b1a1a2a1a-3 ancestral calls
    R1b1a1a2a1a1-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1d-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1e-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c3-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1g2-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2a5-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2b1-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a2c1a1-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2b1b-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2b3a-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1b-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1i-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1j-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1k-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a2a1a1b1a1a-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2a1d-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b1b-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2b1c1b-1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1b2a 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1c1b 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g3c 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b1a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2a1a1a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2b1c1b4 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1b1b3 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g1a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g1b1 2 ancestral calls
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g2a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1k1a2 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a 2 ancestral calls
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b3b 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b4a 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g1b1a 2 ancestral calls
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1k1a1a 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2b1c1b3a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b2a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b3a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1g1b1a1 2 ancestral calls
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1e 2 ancestral calls
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a1b1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a2c1c1b1a2a1b1 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a4a1a 1 ancestral call
    R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a1a1e3a1 1 ancestrall call

    This sample appears to be solidly R1b-Z2103. If the C14 date (5900-5500 BCE) is correct(I see no reason to doubt they aren't) then it throws out on a loop the SNP estimated dates which have R1b-Z2103 to have formed 6100 ybp or 4150 BC. That's huge! That means R1b-Z2103 was live and kicking a full 1350-1750 years before the earliest estimated formed date. I for once I'm not surprised. People here tend to put age estimates before the real ancient data and formulate their hypotheses off the age estimates. I've warned people numerous times about the risky nature of using estimates; specially of highly stochastic processes such as mutation accumulation. So if R1b-Z2103 was already alive and kicking it circa 5500 BCE in Iran; then I can definitely see some of the Latvians HG and perhaps even some of the Iron Gates Hunter Gatherers coming back as being R1b-M269 or even R1b-L51. We would need formal confirmation with SNPs though. In any case it seems that R1b-Z2103 made its Eastern journey very early on. Funny those people who argued that R1b-Z2103 in Yamnaya dated circa 3300 BCE shared a recent common ancestor with R1b-L51 descendant clades in Bell Beaker people and therefore it meant that R1b-L51 must have come out of the Steppe. Well; how do you like them apples?

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  7. #84
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    They dumped the Botai samples from this preprint. Not sure why, but in any case, they were very similar to the West Siberian HGs.

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  9. #85
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    One of the supposedly Neolithic burials from grave F11 turned out to be Bronze Age, so If dated right that'll push the TMRCA of R1b-L23 way far back.

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  11. #86
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    Rather odd, but going buy the autosomal profiles they have in the paper for the Hajji Firuz samples R-Z2103 and the two J2b fellas, they seem to have predominantly farmer ancestry, Iran and Anatolian. No steppe at all.
    Last edited by Skerdilaidas; 04-01-2018 at 03:16 AM.

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  13. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    One of the supposedly Neolithic burials from grave F11 turned out to be Bronze Age, so If dated right that'll push the TMRCA of R1b-L23 way far back.
    huh? Neolithic turned out to be bronze age pushed the TMRCA back? Isn't that backwards? Do we have an update here? Z2103 seems like a legitimate result from Iran or Azerbaijan, I'm just less convinced on the context.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  15. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas View Post
    Rather odd, but going buy the autosomal profiles they have in the paper for the Hajji Firuz samples R-Z2103 and the two J2b fellas, they seem to have predominantly farmer ancestry, Iran and Anatolian. No steppe at all.
    R1b-V88 in Africa doesn't look anything like WHG or possibly (WHG-EHG), but we know based on dating, that was the original state before exogamy.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  17. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    R1b-V88 in Africa doesn't look anything like WHG or possibly (WHG-EHG), but we know based on dating, that was the original state before exogamy.
    And? My response was related to his dating. Someone further up questioned it, and they were saying that he might actually be from a different period, perhaps iron age. Now if that was the case, wouldn't he also differ autosomally from the other fellas that were dated to neolithic period?

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  19. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas View Post
    And? My response was related to his dating. Someone further up questioned it, and they were saying that he might actually be from a different period, perhaps iron age. Now if that was the case, wouldn't he also differ automatically from the other fellas that were dated to neolithic period?
    Just suggesting that the genetic profile could resemble local ones after a few generations. I would agree the dating is possibly wrong considering there are some other mistakes in the spreadsheets. The steppes + whg separated from the middle eastern clusters 45,000 years ago, and the CHG from EEF about 24,000 years ago. It's possible that getting SC Asian and S Asian data makes that picture a little more complex but let's see. I would be very surprised to see R1a or R1b anywhere in the Middle East until after the Neolithic period. (possible exception is V88, which I suspect practiced heavy exogamy with EEF females)
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 04-01-2018 at 03:28 AM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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