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Thread: Central and South Asian DNA Paper

  1. #511
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    I don't think Hajji Firuz BA is related to Armenians.

    It could be related to Gutians who were described as light skin light haired barbaric people.

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    In a posthumously-published article, W.B. Henning suggested that the different endings of the king names resembled case endings in the Tocharian languages, a branch of Indo-European known from texts found in the Tarim Basin (in the northwest of modern China) dating from the 6th to 8th centuries CE.[5] Henning also compared the name Guti with Kuči, the native name of the Tocharian city of Kucha, and with the name of the Yuezhi, pastoral nomads described in Chinese records as living to the east of the Tarim in the 2nd century BCE,[5] although the latter name is usually reconstructed with a *ŋʷ- initial in Old Chinese.[6] He also compared Tukriš, the name of neighbours of the Guti, with the name twγry found in Old Turkish manuscripts from the early 9th century CE and thought to refer to the Tocharians.[5] Gamkrelidze and Ivanov explored Henning's suggestion as possible support for their proposal of an Indo-European Urheimat in the Near East.[7][8]
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    Our genetic discussion groups in Hidden Content , Hidden Content , Hidden Content

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  3. #512
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    Ok I tried the 3-way mix. Tail prob is ridiculous but std. errors show it has a hard time telling apart Armenia_ChL and the earlier Hajji_Firuz samples.

    Left:
    Iran_Hajji_Firuz_BA
    Yamnaya_Samara
    Iran_Hajji_Firuz
    Armenia_ChL

    Right:
    Barcin_N
    Iran_N
    Iran_CA
    Levant_N
    MA1
    Ukraine_Mesolithic
    Iron_Gates_HG
    Kotias
    Khvalynsk
    Ust_Ishim

    chisq: 1.995, tail: 0.960
    coefficients: 0.470 0.203 0.328
    std. errors: 0.059 0.135 0.179

    Tried adding to right pops...
    - Boncuklu_N
    - Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik
    - West_Siberia_N
    - Iran_LN
    None bring down those standard errors between Armenia_ChL and Iran_Hajji_Firuz

    EDIT: Also, just playing around, nowhere currently relevant to post it.
    Left: MA1 AG3 GoyetQ116-1
    Right: Ami Karitiana Papuan Ust_Ishim Vestonice16 Kostenki14 Barcin_N Levant_N Iran_N Kotias
    chisq: 5.0, tail: 0.75
    coefficients: 0.749 0.251
    std. errors: 0.049 0.049
    Pretty much identical if you swap Goyet and Vestonice
    Last edited by Kale; Yesterday at 06:21 PM.
    PM me for d-stats. If I have the samples I will run them. Also, here is a collection of 14,000. Part 1: Hidden Content Part 2: Hidden Content Part 3: Hidden Content

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  5. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Please read again, what i wrote. I am taking about Proto-Indo-Aryans which were R1a-L657 unlike Scythians who were Z2124. I dont think that the Yuezhi immigration had really any significant genetic impact anywhere east of the Hindukush. There are not enough samples from South Asia to make any conclusions here. We need samples from Haryana, Bronze Age/Early Iron Age Afghanistan/Baluchistan, the Ganges region and many other places to say when and how R1a arrived and spread in South Asia.
    The areas from which the Iron Age South Asian samples are taken are spread over a period of 700 years, so temporarily, if not spacially, that's a decent spread. All of that temporal spread is in the Indo-Aryan period. Today that area has ~50% R1a1. The balance is the other diverse set of lines which were indeed found in Swat ancient dna. Is it just happenstance that R1a1 went missing due to the paucity of samples while all the others were present?

    To me it looks like that the Indus Valley was Rg Vedic Indo Aryan and the R1a1 lines are Buddhistic/Scythian Indo-Aryan.

    This is also seen in the internal evidence - there is no mention of anything much peripheral to the IV area in the Rg Ved. On the hand the Atharv Ved has a much larger horizon. It has been suggested that the greater horizon came to be when the Indo-Aryans moved east and therefore we see Magadh (modern Patna area) and Ang (modern Bhagalpur area) mentioned. But then why did the horizon also expand northwards - Mujavant (modern mount Muztagh Ata) - as that is mentioned too together in the same text?

    As to the suggestion that Haryana may harbor R1a1 lines; possible, but I think the Copper Hoard culture futher east is quite different from Swat/Cemetary H and IMO a little too early for R1a1.

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  7. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Shahr I Sokta II

    # Population Percent
    1 Baloch 53.49
    2 S-Indian 30.48
    3 Caucasian 13.40
    4 SW-Asian 1.35


    Memon
    Kit F207412

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baloch 47.15
    2 S-Indian 27.68
    3 Caucasian 13.61
    4 NE-Euro 6.46

    Sindhi

    1 Baloch 47.01
    2 S-Indian 23.85
    3 Caucasian 13.23
    4 NE-Euro 5.68
    5 SW-Asian 4.9
    BA2 was not Indo-Aryan either, no NE Euro, Med or Siberian/American/Beringian components
    David Reich: This is why knowledgeable scientists must speak out. If we abstain from laying out a rational framework for discussing differences among populations, we risk losing the trust of the public and we actively contribute to the distrust of expertise that is now so prevalent. We leave a vacuum that gets filled by pseudoscience, an outcome that is far worse than anything we could achieve by talking openly.

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  9. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    The areas from which the Iron Age South Asian samples are taken are spread over a period of 700 years, so temporarily, if not spacially, that's a decent spread. All of that temporal spread is in the Indo-Aryan period. Today that area has ~50% R1a1. The balance is the other diverse set of lines which were indeed found in Swat ancient dna. Is it just happenstance that R1a1 went missing due to the paucity of samples while all the others were present?

    To me it looks like that the Indus Valley was Rg Vedic Indo Aryan and the R1a1 lines are Buddhistic/Scythian Indo-Aryan.

    This is also seen in the internal evidence - there is no mention of anything much peripheral to the IV area in the Rg Ved. On the hand the Atharv Ved has a much larger horizon. It has been suggested that the greater horizon came to be when the Indo-Aryans moved east and therefore we see Magadh (modern Patna area) and Ang (modern Bhagalpur area) mentioned. But then why did the horizon also expand northwards - Mujavant (modern mount Muztagh Ata) - as that is mentioned too together in the same text?

    As to the suggestion that Haryana may harbor R1a1 lines; possible, but I think the Copper Hoard culture futher east is quite different from Swat/Cemetary H and IMO a little too early for R1a1.
    @Parasar look the Khoja-like BA2 in @pegasus post, and the Vellalar-like BA3, tell me you think these people are early Indo-Aryans

    Every modern Indo-Aryan, from Kashmir to Bengal to Sri Lanka (Sinhalese 1% NE Euro, 1% American, 1% Siberian HAP average), have NE Euro to some level and the Saka/Shaks do not overlap with all of these regions historically
    Last edited by bmoney; Today at 02:08 AM.
    David Reich: This is why knowledgeable scientists must speak out. If we abstain from laying out a rational framework for discussing differences among populations, we risk losing the trust of the public and we actively contribute to the distrust of expertise that is now so prevalent. We leave a vacuum that gets filled by pseudoscience, an outcome that is far worse than anything we could achieve by talking openly.

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  11. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    The areas from which the Iron Age South Asian samples are taken are spread over a period of 700 years, so temporarily, if not spacially, that's a decent spread. All of that temporal spread is in the Indo-Aryan period. Today that area has ~50% R1a1. The balance is the other diverse set of lines which were indeed found in Swat ancient dna. Is it just happenstance that R1a1 went missing due to the paucity of samples while all the others were present?

    To me it looks like that the Indus Valley was Rg Vedic Indo Aryan and the R1a1 lines are Buddhistic/Scythian Indo-Aryan.

    This is also seen in the internal evidence - there is no mention of anything much peripheral to the IV area in the Rg Ved. On the hand the Atharv Ved has a much larger horizon. It has been suggested that the greater horizon came to be when the Indo-Aryans moved east and therefore we see Magadh (modern Patna area) and Ang (modern Bhagalpur area) mentioned. But then why did the horizon also expand northwards - Mujavant (modern mount Muztagh Ata) - as that is mentioned too together in the same text?

    As to the suggestion that Haryana may harbor R1a1 lines; possible, but I think the Copper Hoard culture futher east is quite different from Swat/Cemetary H and IMO a little too early for R1a1.
    Exactly, this area was still IVC culture dominant at that time, the Indo-Aryans do not seem to have taken over in that area at that time
    David Reich: This is why knowledgeable scientists must speak out. If we abstain from laying out a rational framework for discussing differences among populations, we risk losing the trust of the public and we actively contribute to the distrust of expertise that is now so prevalent. We leave a vacuum that gets filled by pseudoscience, an outcome that is far worse than anything we could achieve by talking openly.

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  13. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    BA2 was not Indo-Aryan either, no NE Euro, Med or Siberian/American/Beringian components
    No he is not , but he is a far better proxy along with Gonur 2 for the main Zagrosian ancestry , for many of the populations from the Indus Basin ie Sindhis, Arains, Khatris, Awans, KPK Pashtuns.
    Last edited by pegasus; Today at 02:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    @Parasar look the Khoja-like BA2 in @pegasus post, and the Vellalar-like BA3, tell me you think these people are early Indo-Aryans

    Every modern Indo-Aryan, from Kashmir to Bengal to Sri Lanka (Sinhalese 1% NE Euro, 1% American, 1% Siberian HAP average), have NE Euro to some level and the Saka/Shaks do not overlap with all of these regions historically
    Yes possible.
    There was diversity in physical types. At Mohenjodaro and Lothal folk were quite different.
    While less likely, as standards (bricks, seals, layout, etc.) are quite consistent all across the IVC, there may also have been some diversity in languages.

    Overall from this paper, I'm not seeing any particular Indo-Aryan element in Iron Age Swat. If these were Indo-Aryans, then IMO opinion IVC, Gonur Tepe, Shahr-i-sokhta, and BMAC overall could well have been Indo-Iranian.

    I think we have to wait and see how the other Aryans turn out - the Avestans and Old Persians and the Mitanni. And of course, there is the decipherment of IVC pictograms.

  16. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Overall from this paper, I'm not seeing any particular Indo-Aryan element in Iron Age Swat. If these were Indo-Aryans, then IMO opinion IVC, Gonur Tepe, Shahr-i-sokhta, and BMAC overall could well have been Indo-Iranian.
    Nonsense.

    In South Central Asia during the Bronze Age the only population that shows unambiguous links to Indo-European Europeans is Steppe_MLBA. So this is the obvious choice for early Indo-Iranians.

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