Page 84 of 84 FirstFirst ... 3474828384
Results 831 to 838 of 838

Thread: Central and South Asian DNA Paper

  1. #831
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,384
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by talljimmy0 View Post
    It was obvious having that much steppe would only occur in the Iron Age when long distance mobility was greatly improved. We are most likely seeing Scythian groups integrated in the Mannean and Median armies. The Neo Babylonians called them Umman Manda (meaning men from who knows where) because they had no idea where these horse riding warriors came from, perhaps they were very fair skinned, so they were able to make raids but not stay long in Mesopotamia.
    The female with 50% steppe admix is definitely from the Bronze Age. C14-dated to the Catacomb period.

    We're talking about the male here with 15% steppe admix and Z2103.

  2. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Generalissimo For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-11-2019),  Eihwaz (03-11-2019),  ffoucart (03-12-2019),  Jatt1 (03-11-2019),  K33 (03-11-2019),  Onur Dincer (03-12-2019)

  3. #832
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,384
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by talljimmy0 View Post
    It was obvious having that much steppe would only occur in the Iron Age when long distance mobility was greatly improved. We are most likely seeing Scythian groups integrated in the Mannean and Median armies. The Neo Babylonians called them Umman Manda (meaning men from who knows where) because they had no idea where these horse riding warriors came from, perhaps they were very fair skinned, so they were able to make raids but not stay long in Mesopotamia.
    The female with 50% steppe admix is definitely from the Bronze Age. C14-dated to the Catacomb period.

    We're talking about the male here with 15% steppe admix and Z2103.

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Generalissimo For This Useful Post:

     Jatt1 (03-11-2019),  K33 (03-11-2019),  Onur Dincer (03-12-2019),  Ryukendo (07-07-2019)

  5. #833
    Registered Users
    Posts
    431
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Celto-Germanic, Near East
    Nationality
    Murcan
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U152 (Alsace)
    mtDNA
    T2a1a

    United States of America Palestine Germany Ireland
    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    The female with 50% steppe admix is definitely from the Bronze Age. C14-dated to the Catacomb period.

    We're talking about the male here with 15% steppe admix and Z2103.
    Right.... so the BA gal is still the most interesting IMO...

    Catacomb actually does provide an equally good fit as Afanasievo and Yamnaya_Samara (~2.04%)

    "sample": "Test1:Hajji_Firuz_BA",
    "fit": 2.0389,
    "Catacomb": 54.17,
    "Anatolia_ChL": 25.83,
    "Kura-Araxes_Kalavan": 13.33,
    "Hajji_Firuz_ChL": 6.67,


    Hmmm.... the fact that all the best fits involve Kura-Araxes-related ancestry seems to indicate these people definitely plowed right thru the Azeri lowlands. They did not, for example, skirt along the eastern edges of the Caspian Sea as the Indo-Iranians likely did.

    I still think this BA gal is from the Gutians, Lullubi, or some other extinct IE branch. I don't think Armenian could have arrived until at least several hundred years later than this C14 dating, and I believe the evidence for the "Balkan" origin (Suvorovo/Cernavoda) of the Anatolian branch is most convincing, with an entry into Anatolia via Thrace and not thru the Caucasus.

  6. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to K33 For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (07-05-2019),  Generalissimo (03-11-2019),  Jatt1 (03-11-2019),  Megalophias (03-11-2019),  Principe (03-11-2019),  traject (03-11-2019)

  7. #834
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,494
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    The caution I've previously pointed out about Hajji Firuz sample I2327:

    Regarding the samples from the Hajji Firuz site, the authors already threw out sample I4243 because radiocarbon testing dated it to 2465-2286 cal BCE. The reason why it's relevant is because it was found in burial unit F11 which produced samples I4349 (5887-5724 cal BCE) and I4351 (6056-5894 cal BCE). Z2103+ sample I2327 is labeled as being from Phase F-G, which according to their classification scheme should be older than these other samples (Phase A3). Counter intuitively, they chose to label it with a older age of 5900-5500 BCE. So obviously some caution is justified here.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 03-11-2019 at 11:34 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  8. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-11-2019),  ffoucart (03-12-2019),  Generalissimo (03-11-2019),  Jatt1 (03-11-2019),  Onur Dincer (03-12-2019),  parasar (03-17-2019),  Ruderico (03-11-2019),  Ryukendo (07-07-2019)

  9. #835
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,384
    Sex

    This result is a huge middle finger to all those desperadoes out there who were using that sample to argue for the origins of Yamnaya in Iran.

    I'll have some fun with it once all the details are officially released.
    Last edited by Generalissimo; 03-11-2019 at 08:59 PM.

  10. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Generalissimo For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-11-2019),  agent_lime (07-05-2019),  Eihwaz (03-12-2019),  ffoucart (03-12-2019),  Jatt1 (03-11-2019),  R.Rocca (03-11-2019),  rms2 (03-17-2019),  Ruderico (03-12-2019),  spruithean (05-26-2019)

  11. #836
    Administrator
    Posts
    3,553
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA
    D4j5*

    England
    Quote Originally Posted by K33 View Post
    Right.... so the BA gal is still the most interesting IMO...

    Catacomb actually does provide an equally good fit as Afanasievo and Yamnaya_Samara (~2.04%)

    "sample": "Test1:Hajji_Firuz_BA",
    "fit": 2.0389,
    "Catacomb": 54.17,
    "Anatolia_ChL": 25.83,
    "Kura-Araxes_Kalavan": 13.33,
    "Hajji_Firuz_ChL": 6.67,


    Hmmm.... the fact that all the best fits involve Kura-Araxes-related ancestry seems to indicate these people definitely plowed right thru the Azeri lowlands. They did not, for example, skirt along the eastern edges of the Caspian Sea as the Indo-Iranians likely did.

    I still think this BA gal is from the Gutians, Lullubi, or some other extinct IE branch. I don't think Armenian could have arrived until at least several hundred years later than this C14 dating, and I believe the evidence for the "Balkan" origin (Suvorovo/Cernavoda) of the Anatolian branch is most convincing, with an entry into Anatolia via Thrace and not thru the Caucasus.
    Another perspective on your model (which I think is outstanding, so I thank you profusely for producing such an instructive output).

    I recognise that this thread has gathered about 3-4 months-worth of dust, but this is interesting, and I'd like to think this post might provide some further insight into the above output.

    This individual appears to be largely non-native to the Armenian-Azeri-NW Iranian junction, given that her combined K-A and HF ChL scores barely reach 20% here. The majority of her admixture comes from the north and west (Anatolia, P-C steppes).

    Ergo, she may well be a remarkably well-preserved example of what some of the early proto-Armenian speakers would've looked like. Certain Y-DNA data (e.g. I2c from memory) suggested a west-to-east movement contributed to the ethnogenesis of modern Armenians (that subclade at least is effectively absent in the S. Caucasus-NW Iranian zone). We also have Herodotus' account ("Phrygian colonists"), which might've been a euphemistic expression of a west-to-east movement.
    I should also mention the historian Khorenatsi's invocation of a Bronze Age establishment of the Armenian state (Hayk foundation date) for the sake of completion (which also alludes to a west-to-east direction), though the basis of his conclusion remains obscure.

    You're well-versed, so I imagine you're already aware of the uncertainty regarding Armenian's position in the IE family. It forms a culturo-linguistic clade with Indo-Iranian and Greek (per Anthony), and proto-Armenian is thought by some linguists to have originally been a "semi-satemised" dialect of late PIE (with further satemisation occurring secondary to multi-century Iranian influence, particularly during the Parthian era). The Catacomb culture fits well with that information (though our samples are from the "middle" Catacomb period - It arose around 2800-2700 B.C. IIRC).

    Comparing them with the average of the ancient and modern Armenians (cyc=1k bat=500 pen=def):

    Code:
    	Sample			Details				Fit	Map		Anatolia Boncuklu N	GEO CHG	IRN Ganj Dareh N	Levant PPNB	RUS Khvalynsk En	WHG
    1	ARM_Areni_C:Average					3.8717 	Open Map	41.8			20.2	18.8			9.6	9.6				0
    2	ARM_Lchashen_MBA:Average				3.4626 	Open Map	23.6			30	19.8			14.6	12				0
    3	ARM_MBA:Average						3.9512 	Open Map	24.8			37	14.8			11.8	11				0.6
    4	Armenian:Average					3.8722 	Open Map	28.6			20.6	22.8			26.2	1.8				0
    5	IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243	Ancient; BCE:1925 	4.2656 	Open Map	19.2			29.2	8.8			7.4	34.6				0.8
    The Anatolia_N:Iran_N ratio for HF_BA is in-keeping with ARM_Lchashen_MBA. Also, they clearly didn't come from the east (the Turanian agriculturalists are all more Iran_N-shifted than HF_ChL was).

    Applying this to HF_BA (with Anatolia_MLBA included as a contemporary surrogate for Anatolia_ChL):

    Code:
    	Sample				Details			Fit	Map		ARM Lchashen MBA	Anatolia Kaman-Kalehoyuk MLBA	RUS Catacomb
    1	IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243	Ancient; BCE:1925 	2.2888 	Open Map	26.4			23.2				50.4
    This is in keeping with your model, albeit with fewer pops.

    Omitting Anatolia_MLBA:

    Code:
    	Sample				Details			Fit	Map		ARM Lchashen MBA	RUS Catacomb
    1	IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243	Ancient; BCE:1925 	3.0867 	Open Map	59.8			40.2
    Fit worsens. Adding in HF_ChL:

    Code:
    	Sample				Details			Fit	Map		ARM Lchashen MBA	IRN Hajji Firuz C	RUS Catacomb
    1	IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243	Ancient; BCE:1925 	2.7421 	Open Map	32.2			19.4			48.4
    Clearly, Anatolia_MLBA is a better third source than HF_ChL (though both are required, per your model).

    In summary, I'd like to forward the proposition that Hajji Firuz_BA is some sort of early proto-Armenian outlier in West Asia, and that a Balkan route (through Anatolia) is suggested through the above data. They definitely aren't a simple NW Iranian ChL + steppe combo and the bulk of their non-steppe ancestry lies in Anatolia-Armenia rather than in the Iranian plateau. They appear mostly non-native to (what one would expect from) Bronze Age Iran.
    Last edited by DMXX; 07-05-2019 at 03:54 PM. Reason: final line

  12. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     bmoney (07-08-2019),  Helen (07-05-2019),  palamede (07-05-2019),  Psynome (07-06-2019)

  13. #837
    Registered Users
    Posts
    155

    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    In summary, I'd like to forward the proposition that Hajji Firuz_BA is some sort of early proto-Armenian outlier in West Asia, and that a Balkan route (through Anatolia) is suggested through the above data. They definitely aren't a simple NW Iranian ChL + steppe combo and the bulk of their non-steppe ancestry lies in Anatolia-Armenia rather than in the Iranian plateau. They appear mostly non-native to (what one would expect from) Bronze Age Iran.
    That's a very intriguing hypothesis. One possible issue I'm thinking of is the dating. Most theories of a Balkan origin of the ancestors of Armenian speakers place the migration into Anatolia during or shortly after the late BA collapse of the Hittite empire in the 12th century BCE.

    So the Catacomb period is too early to fit with those theories.


    At the same time, this type of ancestry mix is the sort of thing I might expect from an early proto-Armenian. There may have been earlier smaller movements of Catacomb related peoples from the Balkans into Anatolia and western Iran that are lost to history that brought this type of ancestry there.

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Psynome For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (07-07-2019),  palamede (07-06-2019)

  15. #838
    Administrator
    Posts
    3,553
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA
    D4j5*

    England
    Quote Originally Posted by Psynome View Post
    That's a very intriguing hypothesis. One possible issue I'm thinking of is the dating. Most theories of a Balkan origin of the ancestors of Armenian speakers place the migration into Anatolia during or shortly after the late BA collapse of the Hittite empire in the 12th century BCE.

    So the Catacomb period is too early to fit with those theories.

    At the same time, this type of ancestry mix is the sort of thing I might expect from an early proto-Armenian. There may have been earlier smaller movements of Catacomb related peoples from the Balkans into Anatolia and western Iran that are lost to history that brought this type of ancestry there.
    Thanks for the input.

    Yes, K33's seemingly preferred view (that HF_BA was some sort of non-Armenian, non-II-speaking Indo-European group whose linguistic identity has been lost to time) is another parsimonious explanation. The Gutians would be a reasonable candidate for this, so I agree with K33's invocation of them (IIRC some Gutian given names do sound rather Indo-European, according to some linguists at least).

    Returning to the Armenian idea - As I understand it, the main argument in favour of a Balkan route for Armenian rests on the assumption that the linguistic influence of Greek and Phrygian on (middle?)-proto-Armenian had to have occurred prior to the late Bronze Age. It's an a priori assertion, in effect. Per Anthony's model, Greek, Indo-Iranian, Armenian (and I believe he includes Phrygian too) derived their shared features from a common proto-stage instead. Unless there's an archaeological argument I'm not in aware of to accompany this, I don't think that retrofitting of the linguistic data to suit a particular historical event is a sensible means of developing a theory. Is there something pertaining to the late BA collapse idea I'm ignorant of? Otherwise, it doesn't seem like the linguists are any clearer on Armenian's development (see here).

    The Mitanni don't work either way - Too young (though they could explain the Hakkari stelae IMO).

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     palamede (07-07-2019)

Page 84 of 84 FirstFirst ... 3474828384

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 12-06-2017, 02:47 PM
  2. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-07-2017, 01:37 AM
  3. My East-Asian is not entirely South-Asian owed?
    By Deftextra in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-11-2017, 04:27 AM
  4. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 04-17-2017, 10:24 PM
  5. In what world is Afghanistan Central or South Asian?
    By MyAnthropologies in forum Central
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-17-2016, 08:18 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •