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Thread: Central and South Asian DNA Paper

  1. #491
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    Does lukas or anyone else have gedmatch-compatible raw data files for any of the individuals from this paper? Or from other studies like the Iran_N/Iran_Chl data?
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J-Y978*) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a (FTDNA Kit 329180)
    Maternal- Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a1a* L657+ Y7+ (R-Y16494) (FTDNA Kit 311047), mtDNA: M30b (FTDNA Kit B6225) (Mother's Mother's Father: R1a1a1b2a1a* Y7+ (FTDNA Kit 329181))

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  3. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    80% Bulgarian Yamna , thats cool!
    So does it make it possible that some population traversed Anatolia from the West and landed in NW Iran??
    No, sorry, it appears you missed my edit. F3's + D-stats are both a little noisy. In this case, Hajji_Firuz_BA was just noisy in favor of Bichon. Adding more WHG to the columns caused Hajji_Firuz_BA to reject neolithic European sources (which contain WHG input), in favor of receiving it's excess Anatolian affinity through the much more proximate and likely Armenia_CA (which are ~1,000 years earlier than Hajji_Firuz_BA and from a site only a short distance away).

    Definitely not definitive though. I consider F3 models such as this preliminary ideas for more robust analysis. Considering it seems like a simple two-way mix though, qpadm would be a nice easy way to add or subtract weight from the 50/50 Steppe_EBA/Armenia_CA idea.
    Last edited by Kale; 04-16-2018 at 06:39 PM.
    PM me for d-stats. If I have the samples I will run them. Also, here is a collection of 14,000. Part 1: Hidden Content Part 2: Hidden Content Part 3: Hidden Content

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  5. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Yeah makes sense, all im saying is theres nothing Vedic Aryan about non-late Swat - they were at the nightclub, but it wasnt in Swat
    These are Indo Aryans, look at their Mtdnas, Steppe Mtdna is there. As I said before Steppe shifted early Indo Aryans will be found more proximal to the Western Hindu Kush area several hundred years earlier because they bypass the BMAC and very likely arrived in Eastern Afghan mountain valleys because of what I said earlier before diffusing out later, you have remote Indo Aryan groups there still ie Pashai, Ghawarbatis , and the Dameli I already mentioned, along with Nuristanis /Alinas ( IIr group but with an Indo Aryan shift) Demic diffusions of groups like Kambojas, Gujars or even possibly Jats furthers the demic diffusion case. Fergana is not Indo Aryan nor is it Yaz Iranian, as Jesus said its like these are Proto Saka types.
    Last edited by pegasus; 04-17-2018 at 12:03 AM.

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  7. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    These are Indo Aryans, look at their Mtdnas, Steppe Mtdna is there. As I said before Steppe shifted early Indo Aryans will be found more proximal to the Western Hindu Kush area several hundred years earlier because they bypass the BMAC and very likely arrived in Eastern Afghan mountain valleys because of what I said earlier before diffusing out later, you have remote Indo Aryan groups there still ie Pashai, Ghawarbatis , and the Dameli I already mentioned, along with Nuristanis /Alinas ( IIr group but with an Indo Aryan shift) Demic diffusions of groups like Kambojas, Gujars or even possibly Jats furthers the demic diffusion case. Fergana is not Indo Aryan nor is it Yaz Iranian, as Jesus said its like these are Proto Saka types.
    How can early Swat be called Indo-Aryans even with the odd mtdna here and there and a bit of steppe, genetically some of them look like modern South Indians. Only the late Swat sample resembles a modern Indo-Aryan pop (Kashmiri)

    The remote Indo-Aryan groups (Dardic isn't closely linked to other Indo-Aryan languages) are likely early offshoots as its hard to tie their culture and religion to Vedic Hindu culture (with the exception of Kashmiris). Look at the Kalash religion for example

    Agree with the demic diffusion groups, but its well known that Jats Kambojas Gujjars are not representative of Vedic culture.

    IMO there was a Vedic elite who went to the Gangetic plains (Haryana + West UP) possibly via Kashmir - you can still see their genetic backbone in North Indian Brahmins who also have very high R1a levels, and these people gain a bit of mixture with the local elites wherever they go Bengal, Nepal, Rajasthan etc
    Last edited by bmoney; 04-17-2018 at 03:39 AM.
    David Reich: This is why knowledgeable scientists must speak out. If we abstain from laying out a rational framework for discussing differences among populations, we risk losing the trust of the public and we actively contribute to the distrust of expertise that is now so prevalent. We leave a vacuum that gets filled by pseudoscience, an outcome that is far worse than anything we could achieve by talking openly.

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  9. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    If R1a1 is absent in Avestan, Old Persian, and Mitanni remains, like it was in early Swat, that would IMO ring a death knell for R1a1's (and steppe) association with Indo-Iranians, and boost a Gonur/BMAC origin for Indo-Iranian. That would also imply that the steppe Ra1a was a secondary-subsequent source of Indo-Iranian expansion (Shak, Kushan, etc.).

    On the other hand, if R1a1 is there in Avestan, Old Persian, and Mitanni ancient dna, it would mean that R1a1 steppe were the Indo-Iranians and Gonur/BMAC is the substrate borrowing some have proposed for Indo-Iranians.

    If you recall we had a few posts on Indar/Indra, and his presence in both Indo-Iranian and Mitanni, but not being reconciable with Indo-European, and therefore thought of as one example of the substrate borrowing.
    Your statement is out of logic, a logic that ancient samples are too parsimonious to fill. If steppe was the place of scythians and R1a, how their iranian languages and also the balto-slavic languages actually exists ? It would mean that BMAC had get their satem language from scythians or the contrary, without any genetic exchange like this paper state. That study just dont fill the gap between Andronovo or related cultures and Indo-Iranian languages, it doesn't mean everything is wrong with the steppe hypothesis.

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  11. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    How can early Swat be called Indo-Aryans even with the odd mtdna here and there and a bit of steppe, genetically some of them look like modern South Indians. Only the late Swat sample resembles a modern Indo-Aryan pop (Kashmiri)

    The remote Indo-Aryan groups (Dardic isn't closely linked to other Indo-Aryan languages) are likely early offshoots as its hard to tie their culture and religion to Vedic Hindu culture (with the exception of Kashmiris).

    Agree with the demic diffusion groups, but its well known that Jats Kambojas Gujjars are not representative of Vedic culture.

    IMO there was a Vedic elite who went to the Gangetic plains (Haryana + West UP) possibly via Kashmir - you can still see their genetic backbone in North Indian Brahmins who also have very high R1a levels, and these people gain a bit of mixture with the local elites wherever they go Bengal, Nepal, Rajasthan etc
    edit........
    Last edited by pegasus; 04-17-2018 at 04:10 AM.

  12. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    How can early Swat be called Indo-Aryans even with the odd mtdna here and there and a bit of steppe, genetically some of them look like modern South Indians. Only the late Swat sample resembles a modern Indo-Aryan pop (Kashmiri)

    The remote Indo-Aryan groups (Dardic isn't closely linked to other Indo-Aryan languages) are likely early offshoots as its hard to tie their culture and religion to Vedic Hindu culture (with the exception of Kashmiris).

    Agree with the demic diffusion groups, but its well known that Jats Kambojas Gujjars are not representative of Vedic culture.

    IMO there was a Vedic elite who went to the Gangetic plains (Haryana + West UP) possibly via Kashmir - you can still see their genetic backbone in North Indian Brahmins who also have very high R1a levels, and these people gain a bit of mixture with the local elites wherever they go Bengal, Nepal, Rajasthan etc
    I said EARLY Indo Aryans, those who move deeper into the subcontinent have local accretions they absorbed interacting with other cultures, but even then there are strong connections , which connect in particular Kalash with Rig Vedic Aryans , fire worship , purity laws, women wearing red tilak/bindi during chawmos/zoshi. , and horse figurines which they use in some fire rituals which has parallels with Vedic Asvameda. As Kulin stated in earlier post, Brahmins seem to descend from common sages , which explains the high founder effects as evidenced by high % of R1a. As to when their ethnogenesis occurred, that can be speculated , but my guess is in the North Indus basin in the Potohar Punjab region and thats given the linguistic optics of it. But I think it will end up more convoluted lol

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    Eurogenes has updated Basal-rich K7 spreadsheet with new samples from the study.

    I've updated the Basal-rich K7 spreadsheet with the following samples from the new dataset. Some interesting results there.

    Andronovo_Dali:I0507
    Andronovo_Kashkarchi:I4153
    Andronovo_Kashkarchi:I4255
    Dali_EBA:I3447
    Dzharkutan1_BA:I4161
    Dzharkutan1_BA:I4315
    Dzharkutan1_BA:I7411
    Dzharkutan2_BA:I4901
    Dzharkutan2_BA:I5608
    Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954
    Gonur1_BA:I1784
    Gonur2_BA:I2123
    Saidu_Sharif_IA:I6891
    Sarazm_Eneolithic:I4290
    Sarazm_Eneolithic:I4910
    Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1:S8725
    Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2:S8726
    Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728
    Sintashta:I0984
    Sintashta:I1011
    Sintashta:I1027
    Sintashta:I1053
    Sintashta:I1064
    Sintashta_o1:I0983
    Sintashta_o1:I1007
    Sintashta_o2:I1020
    Sintashta_o2:I1057
    West_Siberia_N:I1960
    West_Siberia_N:I5766

    See here...

    The Basal-rich K7

    Btw, this is where West_Siberia_N cluster in the K7 triangle plot.

    Basal-rich K7 PCA
    Spreadsheet : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=126992927

    Also, note that ASI breaks-down as Southeast Asia/E.Asia/Oceania for South Asians here, since we dont have ASI aDNA yet.

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  16. #499
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    Sindhi (the ones in Generalissimo's dataset at least) are the closest modern population to both Gonur2 and Shahr-i-Sokhta2 in Global25, also closest to all the Swat Valley population averages and most of the individuals, including the ones from before 1000 BC. Second closest for Swat Valley is Pashtun, for Gonur2 Brahmin, for Shahr-i-Sokhta2 Balochi.

    Sindhi
    95% Shaidu_Sharif_IA + 5% Levant_BA
    distance%=1.7271

    Sindhi
    44% Shahr-i-Sokhta3 + 27% Shahr-i-Sokhta1 + 18% Sintashta + 5% Levant BA + 4% Shahr-i-Sokhta2 + 1.6% Mongola
    no Iran N, Hajji Firuz Chl, Geoksyur EN, Sarazm EN, Tepe Hissar EBA, or Gonur2
    distance%=1.3749

    I don't know if it's just coincidence that they have the right balance of components, or continuity going way back, but it's pretty cool.

    Pashtun
    55% Saidu Sharif IA + 16% Sintashta + 7% Gonur2 + 6% Shahr-i-Sokhta1 + 6% Shahr-i-Sokhta2 + 5% Hajji Firuz Chl + 3% Mongola + 2% Levant BA
    distance%=0.8381

    Pashtun
    26% Sintashta + 25% Shahr-i-Sokhta3 + 15% Shahr-i-Sokhta1 + 15% Shahr-i-Sokhta2 + 8% Hajji Firuz Chl + 5% Mongola + 4% Gonur2 + 1% Levant BA
    distance%=1.0164

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  18. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    Does lukas or anyone else have gedmatch-compatible raw data files for any of the individuals from this paper? Or from other studies like the Iran_N/Iran_Chl data?
    There are PLINK files at Reich website you can extract rawdata from it. I don't have time to do it for few hundred samples.
    K36 Ancestry Report, map and other ancestry tools - Hidden Content
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