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Thread: Central and South Asian DNA Paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomasso29 View Post
    I actually find it rather interesting that there's a whole language family that exists in southern India (Dravidian), yet they have a very similar religious structure to the Indo-Aryan groups to their north. Seems odd that if this religion was supposedly enforced, you would think their language would shift too like their northern neighbors.
    We aren't typing this in Hebrew, or even Latin or Greek. Most of East and Southeast Asia has Indo-Aryan religion. Most Muslims don't speak Arabic, only those with lots of settlement by Arab tribes directly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    BMAC may represent Mitani, but Scythian originated from the connections of Andronovo culture, Karasuk and Poltavka
    BMAC was already East Iranic.

    Mitanni were native to Western Asia. The were very close to proto-Iranians.

    Their GODS and they counted in Iranic.

    This is Farsi:

    sefr = 0
    yek = 1
    do = 2
    se = 3
    chahar = 4
    panj = 5
    shesh = 6
    haft = 7
    hasht = 8
    noh = 9
    dah = 10
    yazdah = 11
    davazdah = 12
    sizdah = 13
    chahardah = 14
    panzdah = 15
    shanzdah = 16
    hefdah = 17
    hejdah = 18
    nouzdah = 19
    bist = 20

    Same as Mitanni.


    Andronovo culture, Karasuk and Poltavka etc. was NOT the source of East Iranic. It was just 'Iranised' by East Iranic folks from BMAC.


    Scythians were very mixed people. And not the source of East Iranic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    Brahmins in South India speak in a highly Sanskritic form of the Dravidian languages. For e.g. , Tamil Brahmins have their own dialect of Tamil no matter what region they are from and the dialect includes considerable vocabulary of Sanskrit origin when compared to standard tamil or their regional variations. Even in the northeast, Manipuri Brahmins for e.g. speak Meitei with a lot of Sanskrit words mixed in it.

    Given that the logic is not foolproof, it is still significant given there are no Saka customs nor words of Saka origin spoken by Brahmins.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomasso29 View Post
    This is just evidence that Sanskrit is an important language among Brahmins religiously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd View Post
    Now that we have a sufficient number of good coverage ancient proxies for EHG, MLBA-W/E, Iran-N, C/S Asian BA, IA, Chal farmers, I spent the day comparing substructure in ancients with W and S Asian moderns. My results were largely consistent with the paper and showed that the Eurasian steppe (steppe EMBA/MLBA horizon) was devoid of E Asian admixture (steppe MLBA-E and Afanasievo included) at the late BA.

    By the IA E Asian admixture diffused westward across the steppe via Scythians and related. Now Scythians were by no means homogenous. My analysis showed for ex, the Volga sample at around 11% E Asian (absolute), by contrast Pazryk werecloser to 50%.

    Indo-Iranians such as Kurds were at about 6% E Asian (absolute) with EHG levels around 6% and Siberian-HG levels at 5% with AASI at about 6%. So at least in this case, MLBA-E/W or EMBA can’t have contributed any E Asian to Kurd ethnogenesis because they are at 0% E Asian. From purely an EHG perspective, A 6% EHG requires about a 20% MLBA input, however, a 20 % MLBA input confers 0 E Asian and only about 1% Siberian-HG in the case of MLBA-W, and only 2% Siberian HG in the case of MLBA-E. Since Kurds don’t border China or Tibet, wecan rule out direct chinese or Tibeto-Burman recent flow. However, they are in the contact zone with Scythians. To acquire 5% Siberian and 6% EHG from a W Scythian proxy requires about 25% input, however a 25 % W Scythian input only confers 3% E Asian, which is too low . However, this can be supplemented with additional E Asian from Later Turkic flow to build up to the 6%.

    The alternative of Steppe MLBA supplemented with later Turkic would result in EHG over 6%.

    Things get a little more complex with S Asians. Unlike IA IVC, modern S Asians have substantial E Asian (10-20%) on top of AASI. Obviously MLBA with 0 E Asian can’t account for it. However we do have Tibeto-Burman and SE Asian diffusion


    To be continued with results posted tomorrow .......
    The Narasimhan et al. 2018 preprint says otherwise:

    "Three individuals from the West Siberian forest zone with direct dates ranging from 6200 BCE
    315 to 4000 BCE play an important role in this study as they are representatives of a never-before316
    reported mixture of ancestry that we call West_Siberian_HG: ~30% derived from EHG, ~50%
    317 from Ancestral North Eurasians (defined as being related deeply to 22000-15000 BCE Siberians
    318 (29, 30)), and ~20% related to present-day East Asians."

    "1. In the Kazakh Steppe and Minusinsk Basin during the Middle to Late Bronze Age, ancestry typical of
    pastoralists in the western Steppe (Steppe_MLBA_West) admixed with ancestry related to earlier
    West_Siberian_HG-related groups to form a distinctive Steppe_MLBA_East cluster
    .
    2. Outlier analysis shows that by 1600 BCE in the Middle to Late Bronze Age of the Kazakh Steppe, there were
    numerous individuals with admixture from Turan, providing genetic evidence of northward movement into the
    Steppe in this period.
    3. By 1500 BCE, there were numerous individuals in the Kazakh Steppe with East Asian-related admixture, the
    same type of ancestry that was widespread by the Scythian period (34). This ancestry is hardly present in the
    two primary ancestral populations of South Asia—ANI and ASI—suggesting that Steppe ancestry widespread
    in South Asia derived from earlier southward movements.
    "

    Also, modern Near Eastern Indo-Iranian-speaking populations (Persians, Kurds etc.) on average have less than 2% East Eurasian ancestry according to most calculators. Most modern South Asian populations have similarly small levels of East Eurasian ancestry on average.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ms85 View Post
    This is Farsi:

    sefr = 0
    ...
    Same as Mitanni.
    Could we get the cuneiform for the Mitanni word for "zero", champ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ms85 View Post
    BMAC was already East Iranic.

    Mitanni were native to Western Asia. The were very close to proto-Iranians.

    Their GODS and they counted in Iranic.

    This is Farsi:

    sefr = 0
    yek = 1
    do = 2
    se = 3
    chahar = 4
    panj = 5
    shesh = 6
    haft = 7
    hasht = 8
    noh = 9
    dah = 10
    yazdah = 11
    davazdah = 12
    sizdah = 13
    chahardah = 14
    panzdah = 15
    shanzdah = 16
    hefdah = 17
    hejdah = 18
    nouzdah = 19
    bist = 20

    Same as Mitanni.


    Andronovo culture, Karasuk and Poltavka etc. was NOT the source of East Iranic. It was just 'Iranised' by East Iranic folks from BMAC.


    Scythians were very mixed people. And not the source of East Iranic.
    Yes that's right Scythian were mixed people the further east the more Mongolian influences (Okunevo culture)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    "The Parthians, in whose hands the empire of the east is now, having been divided, as it were, with the Romans, were originally exiles from Scythia Parthi
    There is an evidence that the Medes migrated into Central Asia and brought Mesopotamian religion called Zoroastrianism into BMAC horizon.

    Balochi people are the living evidence that there was such a migration of North West Iranic people into Central Asia.


    Parthians are basically North West Iranian Medes mixed slightly with the Scythians (East Iranic). Parthian language is a North West Iranic language, just like the ancient language of the Medes and Kurdish.


    Kurds are also basically the North West Iranian Medes mixed a little bit with the Scythians from the Steppes. That's why Kurds have a little bit of the Steppes ancestry in them. It has been mentioned by ancient Hellenic writers that there was a migrations of Cimmerians, Scythians etc. into the mountainious land of the Medes (Aryans).
    Last edited by ms85; 04-24-2018 at 06:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    We aren't typing this in Hebrew, or even Latin or Greek. Most of East and Southeast Asia has Indo-Aryan religion. Most Muslims don't speak Arabic, only those with lots of settlement by Arab tribes directly.
    But this sort of proves my point about the Brahmins in South India. The areas where Islam spread and Arabic is not spoken was not a major expansion of Arab genes. If you look at languages like Persian, Kurdish, Turkish, Urdu, etc, there's a significant Arabic influence, and it's due to a religious expansion.

    Actually looking at what anthroin wrote earlier about the second urbanization, it sort of makes sense to think that the mixing of Indo-Aryan culture and the previous cultures within India is probably a much more recent event, and there's a strong chance that the Mauryan empire played a major role in this expansion. Anything prior to that (Vedic period and IVC) seems to match what we already have in the samples from this study. Which tells me that the Indo-Aryans that spread the language(s) to the rest of India were a number of lineages and part of a complex mixed culture. Not a single group nor a single haplogroup.

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    When people talk about so called 'Indo-Iranians" they don't actually understand what they are talking about. They have no knowledge of Iranian (Aryan) history

    First of all, Indo-Iranians don't exist. We have 2 types of people. Indic (Indo-Aryan) people and Iranic (Aryan) people.

    There is also a difference between West Iranians and East Iranians. It were the West Iranian Medes and Persians (Cyrus) who called themselves Aryans. West Iranians were much more developed/advanced due to their connection with the Mesopotamian civilizations than East Iranians. East Iranians belonged to a some kind of barbaric undeveloped tribes of Central Asia. But even those undeveloped East Iranian tribes could 'Iranise' people of the Steppes. East Iranian BMAC folks heavily influenced non-Indo-European tribes around Andronovo Horizon.


    EHG auDNA has nothing to do with Iranian people or even PIEans at all. EHG people were just a mixture of Mongoloid Finno-Ugric/Uralic people and the ancient Iranian farmers who migrated into the Steppes 8000-9000 years ago.
    Last edited by ms85; 04-24-2018 at 07:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ms85 View Post
    When people talk about so called 'Indo-Iranians" they don't actually understand what they are talking about. They have no knowledge of Iranian (Aryan) history

    First of all, Indo-Iranians don't exist. We have 2 types of people. Indic (Indo-Aryan) people and Iranic (Aryan) people.

    There is also a difference between West Iranians and East Iranians. It were the West Iranian Medes and Persians (Cyrus) who called themselves Aryans. West Iranians were much more developed/advanced due to their connection with the Mesopotamian civilizations than East Iranians. East Iranians belonged to a some kind of barbaric undeveloped tribes of Central Asia. But even those undeveloped East Iranian tribes could 'Iranise' people of the Steppes. East Iranian BMAC folks heavily influenced non-Indo-European tribes around Andronovo Horizon.


    EHG auDNA has nothing to do with Iranian people or even PIEans at all. EHG people were just a mixture of Mongoloid Finno-Ugric/Uralic people and the ancient Iranian farmers who migrated into the Steppes 8000-9000 years ago.
    But the proto-Iranian (language) originated in the Poltavka culture and Sintashta culture that should not be overlooked
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