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Thread: South Asian PCA based on the latest 2018 South/Central Asian paper

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    They never accepted any of their mistakes and Narasimhan even ignored my Twitter posts toward him when I questioned the pre-print data. Not only did they mislabel PJL samples as UK diaspora Punjabis but they made other mistakes such as mislabeling where the Kashmiri Muslim or Dogra samples are from. I'll reconfirm which one it was.

    You really don't have the slightest clue about Punjab. Bains and Thind? Those are just 2 of the tons of Jatt Sikh names that Chamars or dalits use. Others are Gill, Maan, Sahota, Basra, Dhanda, Johal, Virk, Heer, Sidhu,etc. Also, are you not aware of the large percentage of chamars/dalits in Punjab who are Sikh? Punjab is around 30-35% dalit (Chamar, Mazhabi, etc.). Not all of them are Hindu. The forum member bol_nat even found a "Sahota" kit on GEDMatch who scored 56% South Indian (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....Results/page3) on Harappa while I have two Jatt Sikh Sahota kits who score 25%+ less South Indian on Harappa.

    .
    ...

    Are you referring to Gedrosia K11? I don't see a K12 on there so please provide the link. I'm very familiar with Gedrosia K12 though and the Jatt Sikh range on there is not 29.15 to 46.38 and their SINTASTA STEPPE does not range from 7.98 to 18.31. You're either counting McNinja's family who is Jatt Muslim and mixed or including other mixed individuals.

    On my spreadsheet, there are 105 Jatt Sikh GEDMatch kits (tab 6):
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=898798223

    There is some internal variation between individuals but the scores are remarkably consistent for a sub-ethnic group of Punjabis that numbers in the millions.

    Regarding, my own result:

    If you want to make a fool out of yourself, go right ahead. You are comparing the AASI estimates in the Narasimhan paper that don't include the substantial AASI in the Indus Periphery component. It is a mixed component that is Iran N + WSHG + AASI. Are you even aware of which ancients the paper used to proxy Indus Periphery? They included SIS BA3 + a few others. SIS BA3 itself is 42-44% AASI.

    I'm not sure if its intellectual dishonesty on your part or you're just being disingenuous but you should think before you write.

    Two other last names often used by Chamar brethren are Mattu (Jatt) and Banga (Saini).

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    Quote Originally Posted by laltota View Post
    Two other last names often used by Chamar brethren are Mattu (Jatt) and Banga (Saini).
    I know chamars from our pind use sohal (used by Tarkhans and jatts) and Kalyan (my surname), in my mom's pind they use (Nijjer and Sembhi).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    They never accepted any of their mistakes and Narasimhan even ignored my Twitter posts toward him when I questioned the pre-print data. Not only did they mislabel PJL samples as UK diaspora Punjabis but they made other mistakes such as mislabeling where the Kashmiri Muslim or Dogra samples are from. I'll reconfirm which one it was.

    You really don't have the slightest clue about Punjab. Bains and Thind? Those are just 2 of the tons of Jatt Sikh names that Chamars or dalits use. Others are Gill, Maan, Sahota, Basra, Dhanda, Johal, Virk, Heer, Sidhu, Bal, Sandhu, etc. Also, are you not aware of the large percentage of chamars/dalits in Punjab who are Sikh? Punjab is around 30-35% dalit (Chamar, Mazhabi, etc.). Not all of them are Hindu. The forum member bol_nat even found a "Sahota" kit on GEDMatch who scored 56% South Indian (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....Results/page3) on Harappa while I have two Jatt Sikh Sahota kits who score 25%+ less South Indian on Harappa.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1369294505

    Although, it wasn't this paper, the 2018 Damgaard paper below mislabeled Khatris. Go to the IN_Khatri GEDMatch Genesis tab in the link above. Two of the Khatris score almost identical to the Gujarati Brahmin average. The Gujarati Brahmin results are shown on the same sheet two tabs to the right.

    http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...b-figures-data





    You seem to be quoting McNinja's sheet:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...rive_web#gid=7

    Are you referring to Gedrosia K11? I don't see a K12 on there so please provide the link (it may be separate one created by Dr_McNinja). I'm very familiar with Gedrosia K12 though and the Jatt Sikh range on there is not 29.15 to 46.38 and their SINTASTA STEPPE does not range from 7.98 to 18.31. You're either counting McNinja's family who is Jatt Muslim and mixed or including other mixed individuals.


    I managed to dig up Dr_McNija's fathers results for Gedrosia K12:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post103313

    His family is mixed and he has openly stated his results are atypical for his group (Punjabi Jatt Muslim) and they're even more atypical for Jatt Sikhs. What caused you to believe McNinja or his family are Jatt Sikhs exactly?


    Now, much more data:

    On my spreadsheet, there are 105 Jatt Sikh GEDMatch kits (tab 6):
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=898798223

    There is some internal variation between individuals but the scores are remarkably consistent for a sub-ethnic group of Punjabis that numbers in the millions.

    Regarding, my own result:

    If you want to make a fool out of yourself, go right ahead. You are comparing the AASI estimates in the Narasimhan paper that don't include the substantial AASI in the Indus Periphery component. It is a mixed component that is Iran N + WSHG + AASI. Are you even aware of which ancients the paper used to proxy Indus Periphery? They included SIS BA3 + a few others. SIS BA3 itself is 42-44% AASI. I'm not sure if its intellectual dishonesty on your part or you're just being disingenuous but you should think before you write.
    Results of Sidhu

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 S-Indian 53.6
    2 Baloch 31.25
    3 NE-Euro 3.19
    4 Caucasian 2.75
    5 SE-Asian 2.65
    6 Beringian 1.8
    7 Mediterranean 1.65
    8 Papuan 1.12
    9 Siberian 1.07
    10 SW-Asian 0.92

    We will likely find more kits if PJL D samples were uploaded on old gedmatch.

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  6. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    They never accepted any of their mistakes and Narasimhan even ignored my Twitter posts toward him when I questioned the pre-print data. Not only did they mislabel PJL samples as UK diaspora Punjabis but they made other mistakes such as mislabeling where the Kashmiri Muslim or Dogra samples are from. I'll reconfirm which one it was.

    You really don't have the slightest clue about Punjab. Bains and Thind? Those are just 2 of the tons of Jatt Sikh names that Chamars or dalits use. Others are Gill, Maan, Sahota, Basra, Dhanda, Johal, Virk, Heer, Sidhu, Bal, Sandhu, etc. Also, are you not aware of the large percentage of chamars/dalits in Punjab who are Sikh? Punjab is around 30-35% dalit (Chamar, Mazhabi, etc.). Not all of them are Hindu. The forum member bol_nat even found a "Sahota" kit on GEDMatch who scored 56% South Indian (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....Results/page3) on Harappa while I have two Jatt Sikh Sahota kits who score 25%+ less South Indian on Harappa.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1369294505

    Although, it wasn't this paper, the 2018 Damgaard paper below mislabeled Khatris. Go to the IN_Khatri GEDMatch Genesis tab in the link above. Two of the Khatris score almost identical to the Gujarati Brahmin average. The Gujarati Brahmin results are shown on the same sheet two tabs to the right.

    http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...b-figures-data





    You seem to be quoting McNinja's sheet:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...rive_web#gid=7

    Are you referring to Gedrosia K11? I don't see a K12 on there so please provide the link (it may be separate one created by Dr_McNinja). I'm very familiar with Gedrosia K12 though and the Jatt Sikh range on there is not 29.15 to 46.38 and their SINTASTA STEPPE does not range from 7.98 to 18.31. You're either counting McNinja's family who is Jatt Muslim and mixed or including other mixed individuals.


    I managed to dig up Dr_McNija's fathers results for Gedrosia K12:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post103313

    His family is mixed and he has openly stated his results are atypical for his group (Punjabi Jatt Muslim) and they're even more atypical for Jatt Sikhs. What caused you to believe McNinja or his family are Jatt Sikhs exactly?


    Now, much more data:

    On my spreadsheet, there are 105 Jatt Sikh GEDMatch kits (tab 6):
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=898798223

    There is some internal variation between individuals but the scores are remarkably consistent for a sub-ethnic group of Punjabis that numbers in the millions.

    Regarding, my own result:

    If you want to make a fool out of yourself, go right ahead. You are comparing the AASI estimates in the Narasimhan paper that don't include the substantial AASI in the Indus Periphery component. It is a mixed component that is Iran N + WSHG + AASI. Are you even aware of which ancients the paper used to proxy Indus Periphery? They included SIS BA3 + a few others. SIS BA3 itself is 42-44% AASI. I'm not sure if its intellectual dishonesty on your part or you're just being disingenuous but you should think before you write.
    NO they will NEVER ever do that and will never admit error. IMO its a combination of ego and what I call Ivy League snobbery also in fairness to them the stakes are high , for an anthro blogger to be pointing out glaring errors is like social suicide almost for them to admit. Its sounds petty but lol but human behavior even at the upper echelons is the same.
    The Harvard case is baffling because they actually have had great archaeologists and linguists there , why not consult with them.
    It was not a simple mix of Indo Iranians playing hopscotch and landing and mixing with one group. They definitely mixed up with BMAC related populations in varying portions and while its not apparent now , most SC Asian/ Afghan populations are heavily derived from them so they were definitely living in swathes of areas south of the Oxus. Also groups diffused in waves.

    By Narasimhan's method you should be 37% AASI lol. IVCp is 30% AASI. Population genomics in this part of the world is not so cookie cutter simple. I have a huge issue with his sampling and model which is not comprehensive and inclusive. He left out Sindhis and Baloch/Makrani who inhabit the region where the main center of the IVC was. Granted Baloch/Makrani have extra Plateau Iranian ancestry , they still are quite important as they still harbor the most levels of Iran_N related ancestry.
    Last edited by pegasus; 01-11-2019 at 05:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    NO they will NEVER ever do that and will never admit error. IMO its a combination of ego and what I call Ivy League snobbery also in fairness to them the stakes are high , for a anthro blogger to be point out glaring errors is like social suicide almost for them to admit. Its sounds petty but lol but human behavior even at the upper echelons is the same.
    The Harvard case is baffling because they actually have had great archaeologists and linguists there , why not consult with them.
    It was not a simple mix of Indo Iranians playing hopscotch and landing and mixing with one group. They definitely mixed up with BMAC related populations in varying portions and while its not apparent now , most SC Asian/ Afghan populations are heavily derived from them so they were definitely living in swathes of areas south of the Oxus. Also groups diffused in waves.

    By Narasimhan's method you should be 37% AASI lol. IVCp is 30% AASI. Population genomics in this part of the world is not so cookie cutter simple. I have a huge issue with his sampling and model which is not comprehensive and inclusive. He left out Sindhis and Baloch/Makrani who inhabit the region where the main center of the IVC was. Granted Baloch/Makrani have extra Plateau Iranian ancestry , they still are quite important as they still harbor the most levels of Iran_N related ancestry.
    At least the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy is a conventionally acceptable buffer and somewhat expected - I'm more taken aback by some of the misplaced hubris and ego from rank amateurs (which all of us are, let's be honest) we've seen in this community over the past couple years.

    Yes, I too was surprised by the absence of "Gedrosian" samples in their analyses - They could've easily accounted for additional Iranian plateau ancestry in qpAdm by, you know... Including an additional Iranian plateau ancient to their Sintashta + Ip + AASI combo.

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  10. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinosaurusN3H1 View Post
    Sorry for necroposting but could you provide a link where Narasimhan et al. accepted their mistakes? I still think the number of samples for different groups in the study was quite lopsided so equal no of samples would've sorted this out. Having stayed in Punjab for a long time, I know some lower caste surnames are similar to Jatts e.g. Bains, Thind and are mostly Hindus. Then again Hindu Jats from some regions are considered Backward Castes. Mislabelling in this case would be quite a blunder but I don't agree with the 'mixed Jatt Sikh' sampling part since other population groups like Khatris, Brahmins, etc could be just as mixed.



    Are you referring to "South Asian Ancestry Spreadsheet"? It has quite a few mixed Jatt Sikh individuals. Not to mention, Jatt Sikhs are not that uniform genetically like the way you are presenting. In Gedrosia K12 their S. INDIAN range from 29.15 to 46.38 and their SINTASTA STEPPE from 7.98 to 18.31.

    As per the attachment below, your own AASI percentage is similar to the Narasimhan's "Jatt Sikh" sample which you find atypical.
    Attachment 28258

    *Jatt Sikhs in Narasimhan et al. : AASI - 20.8%, Indus Diaspora - 55 % and Steppe MLBA - 24.2%.
    *Punjabi Sikh Jatt (Sapporo) : AASI - 20.68%, Iran_N - 50.52%, Steppe MLBA East - 28.8%

    I believe that the original Agrarian population that became Jats had higher AASI and lower Steppe than the higher castes of the region before the admixture with Indo-Scythians
    "I believe that the original Agrarian population that became Jats had higher AASI and lower Steppe than the higher castes of the region " - In that case what would have been the yDna and mtDna of the "original" population that had higher AASI?

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    Sapporo and perhaps MDL and others can chime in here as well. If some chamars use the same surname as Jatts, how can you tell the difference aside from looks? Is there any other aspect of their name/lifestyle that may give it away?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26284729292 View Post
    Sapporo and perhaps MDL and others can chime in here as well. If some chamars use the same surname as Jatts, how can you tell the difference aside from looks? Is there any other aspect of their name/lifestyle that may give it away?
    Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference especially when you're in urban setting, and the person from dalit background is properly educated and has a lifestyle that allows them to blend in easily anywhere.

    Second while they can sometimes overlap, the percentage is very small that can, and it's usually chamars that can look like biradari rather than Churahs, which the results show as well of both communities. It's easier to tell the difference when you're in pind than the city. From their overall style if they're not from a privileged family. As bad as it sounds, they won't be much open about their background, while a biradari person will be open about talking about their background. If I see someone who's surname is Sidhu, is working as a cleaner in an office and looks like aziz ansari, it won't be hard to guess.

    For some reason it was weird typing all this, like you feel how messed up the society is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference especially when you're in urban setting, and the person from dalit background is properly educated and has a lifestyle that allows them to blend in easily anywhere.

    Second while they can sometimes overlap, the percentage is very small that can, and it's usually chamars that can look like biradari rather than Churahs, which the results show as well of both communities. It's easier to tell the difference when you're in pind than the city. From their overall style if they're not from a privileged family. As bad as it sounds, they won't be much open about their background, while a biradari person will be open about talking about their background. If I see someone who's surname is Sidhu, is working as a cleaner in an office and looks like aziz ansari, it won't be hard to guess.

    For some reason it was weird typing all this, like you feel how messed up the society is.
    Believe me, you put this more eloquently than some of my punjabi friends. Sorry if I put you in a weird spot. Your heart is in the right place. You're not talking down to anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 26284729292 View Post
    Believe me, you put this more eloquently than some of my punjabi friends. Sorry if I put you in a weird spot. Your heart is in the right place. You're not talking down to anyone.
    Believe me, you wouldn't imagine some of the things I've heard family members (not immediate) say regarding Chamars and Churas.
    I4285 I4285 1873-1661 calBCE (343025 BP, PSUAMS-2536) BMAC Sappali_Tepe_BA Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan U7a3 L1a
    I5604 I5604 1880-1697 calBCE (346520 BP, PSUAMS-2774) BMAC Bustan_BA Bustan Uzbekistan K1a1 L1a
    I6667 I6667 1497-1413 calBCE (317020 BP, PSUAMS-2998) Parkhai_LBA_o Parkhai_LBA_o Parkhai II Turkmenistan HV2a
    I6669 I6669 3082-2909 calBCE (436525 BP, PSUAMS-2950) Parkhai_EN Parkhai_EN Parkhai II Turkmenistan HV2
    I4899 I4899 1600-1300 BCE BMAC Bustan_BA Bustan Uzbekistan R0 J

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