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Thread: Surname/DNA analysis for L193

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    Surname/DNA analysis for L193

    Hi All,

    I recently had my FTDNA matches analysed at Scottish Origenes. Briefly, the analysis involves a cross-referencing of surname matches with clusters of farming families in Scotland (from the census records) of those surnames. The idea is that farming communities tend to stay put; and that by examining clusters of associated surnames, the risk of confounding the data due to NPE etc is reduced. Sounds sensible to me.

    Anyway, in my particular case, I've been stuck on my male (Sharp) line for years. MDKA is in south Ayrshire in 1742. With L193 (Z17817), I was thinking we maybe came from further north, like Perthshire or Stirlingshire.

    Anyway, the surname analysis places my line south of where they are in 1742 - just north of Dumfries in the Nith Valley. I was aware of Sharp families in this area, but have not yet established a paper trail link. Sure enough, lots of my matching surnames cluster in this small area- The migration would make perfect sense as well - just upriver into south Ayrshire.

    I wanted to post this, as the analysis was combined with an estimated 'ethnicity' of Ancient Briton. Nithsdale seems to have been just on the border of Galloway (Gaelic) and the old Kingdom of Strathclyde lands (Cumbric speaking). My matches are pretty much 50/50 Gaelic names and non-Gaelic names, but most all Scottish.

    I always felt that if L193 was heavily represented in the Strathclyde Brits, there should be more of it further south into England? That's why I always guessed L193 must have migrated south, post Iron Age, into more southerly areas, after the Roman occupation ended.

    Anyway, just wanted to share this analysis with you all, as I think on the surnames/location aspect it seems very plausible. Not sure about the DNA side. Any thoughts welcome.

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    The Irish/Scottish/other Origenes geographic associations to surnames based on DNA at least as it was done some years ago lacked scientific rigor; although some people felt the results were accurate for them, others did not.

    See for instance here on Anthrogenica: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....light=origenes, or this link: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debunking/companies, this one: https://cruwys.blogspot.com/2014/06/...e-reports.html, and the other sites linked further from those.

    My personal opinion is that if your ancestors DID stay in one place, the method may certainly find them, but then it's not really any different from using old census records and other data to locate a surname.

    But the method required too many unsubstantiated leaps, cherry-picking of evidence and assumptions as to surname origins and which DNA to use over others for it to be actually scientific. As far as I know it's not able to be independently replicated and provide the same answers, and it also has not been verified through DNA testing of the surnames in the identified geography to prove the connection (which would need to be verified multiple times to prove the approach, not just one or two isolated cases! As I said, it's possible that the method does get it right every once in awhile but that doesn't mean it actually works).

    I'll fully admit though that I haven't looked at the methodology in a few years so if it has changed significantly it's possible that it's more reliable.

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    Thanks Dave. I agree that it's basically a version of a census analysis. What is impressive however is the detail on the map; this is what actually persuaded me to go for it. I saw a graphic online recently and with Galloway, for example, he's managed to place a lot of the old (and mostly extinct) Galloway gaelic names (e.g. MacGuffock), onto their farmsteads. This is certainly information available in the records, but must have taken a lot of time and effort to actually compile.

    Regarding the methodology, I just can't tell. I mean, if we accept that the names we match with, especially at 67 and 111 GD, are fairly close relatives, then logically it seems fair enough to me to look at which geographical location/s feature exactly that cluster. For example, he ID'd 5 different locations of Sharp farming families in Scotland; but only one location where Sharp converges with all of the surnames I match with most frequently at the upper matching levels of 111 and 62/67. Going on a rough estimate of surnames coming into play around 1000 years ago, it seems that's where they might have been.

    What I still struggle with is how to link this with the older DNA picture. If they were indeed in the Nithsdale area around 1000 years ago when they acquired surnames, where were they before that? I know that the Galloway region is tricky in this regard, as it was a real melting pot in the early medieval period. If you go further back in my matches, there seesm to be an increas in Argyllshire surnames (e.g. MacDuffee; Maclean; McIntyre etc.), which thin out the closer I get to 67 and 111. Could this mean an even earlier folk migration from the west down into Galloway? I just read today in WJ Watson's wonderful 'Celtic Placenames of Scotland' that settlement of Dumfriesshire from Argyll must have been happening from around the 7th century (based on historical linguistics). Any thoughts on how this fits the L193 DNA picture??

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    I'll not name him here, although he probably wouldn't mind....I have a member in my Airgialla II group that has LONG standing historical ties in Scotland. Oddly enough, there has been a Maguire "neighbor" just a few drives down....for at least 4 generations. He and I have matched Y111 and SNPs unto Z16337....which is the weird MacGuire SNP....McGuire, Maguire, MacGuire, etc....

    We are cousins of L193....about 2000 yrs ago....when S5668 broke apart.

    I personally, think we were two tribes that meandered across the Belgian/French coast and wandered wherever the booty was best for our tribes. But, being a USN retired guy maybe I'm a bit prejudiced. My Grandad did WWI, my Dad did Korea, I've done everything since 77....so, a large bit of the cold war and all of the follow on crap that followed.

    Apparently, being a Sailor, is in our DNA...I'm the only goofball to do 30 yrs...Grandad and Dad did their hitch and came back to the farm. I tried that, it didn't work out, a year later, the farm was sold at auction, much to my dismay. Dad was 52....and suddenly, jobless. Life sucked in 1985!

    Grandma McGuire always said "we came from royalty"....I always thought she was a bit crazy.

    And then I found her genealogy notes from the 40s!!!

    And then, in 2008, I sent in a DNA kit to these folks called FTDNA.

    Now??? Grandma, was MORE correct than she ever knew!!! It is amazing, the level of detail that I can now delve into!!

    L21 > L513 > S5668 > Z16340.......and beyond!!! What I once thought was a break out point for one ancestor has shown to be three levels down on the Big Tree. I'm looking for cousins that have differences now!! On known hard paper.

    I still ain't found Patrick's parents....but that will come. I'm patient like that.

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    How much did this cost you? I’m thinking of doing this for my Cummins ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    How much did this cost you? I’m thinking of doing this for my Cummins ancestry.
    I'd stay away from any of the Origenes sites, it's somewhat pseudo-scientific. What level of Y-STR testing have you done? I'm assuming you've gotten either a L513 or L193 result or show matches with men who are L193+
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    I'd stay away from any of the Origenes sites, it's somewhat pseudo-scientific. What level of Y-STR testing have you done? I'm assuming you've gotten either a L513 or L193 result or show matches with men who are L193+
    Thanks, I tried him before and was offered results for £300 - no thanks.

    My results are at the Y-DNA 37 level, my closest match shares 36 with me, and my closest surname matches shares 33. I do have numerous L193 matches, yes.

    I'm not sure where to proceed from this point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    Thanks, I tried him before and was offered results for £300 - no thanks.

    My results are at the Y-DNA 37 level, my closest match shares 36 with me, and my closest surname matches shares 33. I do have numerous L193 matches, yes.

    I'm not sure where to proceed from this point?
    Well join the Ireland project (if you aren't already a member) and I'll run a genetic distance report for you comparing your results against other project members.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ireland-heritage/

    We obviously have a fair number of L513+ men in project including L193+. Obviously from a point of view of wider Ulster history L193 sits on same branch of L513 which the McGuires/Maguires of Fermanagh cluster (Airghialla II cluster)

    eg.
    L21/S145 > DF13 > L513 > S5668 > A7 > S5979 > L193
    vs.
    L21/S145 > DF13 > L513 > S5668 > Z16340 > FGC9807 > FGC9795

    It would seem that S5668 (and thus L513) dates back to period covering transition between Bronze and Iron age so probably been found in both Ireland and Scotland (via it's branches) for a very long time.

    You could potentially just test L193 by itself ($39), there is also L513 SNP bundle which is more expensive but which would test you for a large number of SNP's. I'm not sure though if it tests many/any of sub-branches of L193.
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    Would the L193 kit give me a branch of L193?

    I have just joined the project, so I look forward to your analysis.

    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    Would the L193 kit give me a branch of L193?

    I have just joined the project, so I look forward to your analysis.

    Thank you.
    So you have a minimum of 20 L513+ (most in the S5668+ subgroup) confirmed matches in GD report. They range in genetic distance from 2 to 7. In both cases your closest confirmed L513+ match and your most distant are both also confirmed as L193+. So I'd imagine it's fairly certain that you belong in this branch of L513.

    I just had a look and it turns out there is a L193 SNP bundle test for $119:

    R1b - S5982&L193 SNP Pack
    Includes the following SNPs on the haplotree:
    L193, Z17299, FGC32661, A8, A3, Z17817, A1063, A1067, Z17813, Z17815, Z17816, ZS4576, ZS4578, BY2634, S5982, A1075, BY651, Z18059, Z18060, Z18065, A5863, A5864, BY3152, ZS4584, ZS4585, A1064, A1065, BY11240, BY11249, FGC39900, A9, FGC31823, FGC31824, Z17295, Z17294, Z17296, Z17297, Z17298, BY207, ZS4581, FGC32004, BY2635, BY2636, BY2637, BY2638, FGC39512, FGC39513, FGC39508, FGC39511, BY4017, BY4018, BY4019, BY4020, BY4021, BY4024, ZS4577, ZS4580, ZS4582, ZS4583, ZS4587, ZS4588, FGC30219, FGC30223, FGC30231, FGC30221, FGC39649, FGC32128, BY11239, FGC32082, FGC32083, FGC32085, FGC32087, FGC32088, FGC32090, BY11214, BY11221, BY11238, BY11243, BY11210, BY11211, BY11555, BY11559, BY11212, BY11231, BY11218, BY11247, BY11242, FGC39507, BY11241, FGC36506, FGC36507, BY11558, BY11554, BY11227, BY11228, BY11224, BY11230, BY11217, FGC30218, FGC30222, FGC30220, BY4023, BY11556, A1069, FGC39651, Z17814, FGC40094, BY11557, A1072, A1074, FGC40129, FGC40130, FGC39793, FGC39794, BY11248, A1066, A1068, BY11244, BY11245, A5862, A5865, FGC39899, FGC39901, BY11232, BY11220, BY11233, BY11234, BY11215, FGC32836, FGC32837, BY11226, BY11216, FGC32123, FGC32124, FGC32127, Z18061, Z18062, Z18063, Z18064, FGC35609, FGC35610, BY11246, BY11552, BY11237, BY11213, FGC36390, FGC36391, BY11250, BY11229, FGC21249, FGC21250, FGC35851, FGC35852, FGC32657, FGC32658, BY11219, FGC31825, FGC31827, FGC32001, FGC32002, A7712, A7713, BY13856, BY13857, A5867

    Includes the following SNPs that are NOT on the haplotree:
    M9846, BY11236, BY11222, BY11549, BY11550, BY11551, BY11553
    Looking at this it does appear to cover the major branches of L193:
    https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=539

    Obviously $119 is more of an ask then $39 for just L193 test, however given it tests quite a large number of SNP's you end up with considerably more data (eg. what branches of L193 you might be negative or positive for) at a very low cost per snp. If it helps I could always do some sponsorship via the Ireland project fund (say $39) to help bring the cost down.
    Last edited by Dubhthach; 02-26-2019 at 09:19 PM.
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