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Thread: Surname/DNA analysis for L193

  1. #31
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    About 17% of the population of Scotland are roman catholic and of them the vast majority got that religion from migrant Irish ancestors who came over in the 19th century from Ireland. The vast bulk of the Irish migration to Scotland actually came from the counties all along what is now the border area between the Republic and Northern Ireland. That included the border counties of Ulster that are now in northern Ireland (Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh) -as well as the Ulster counties that now are in the Republic (Donegal, Monaghan, Cavan) and some of the counties in the Republic that border Ulster but are in Connaught (Sligo, Rosscommon) and Leinster (Longford). Some migrants came from other bits of Ireland but probably 90% of the Irish immigrants came from what is now the northern third of Ireland - an area that straddles both the Republic and NI. However at that time there was no such division in Ireland and indeed technically the Irish were not immigrants in Scotland as all of Ireland at that time was part of the UK, just as Scotland was.

    You cannot tell who has Irish ancestry from surnames alone. For instance, in the huge Irish migration to Dundee in the 19th century, two thirds of the migrants were women. Simply arithmetic then dictates half of these Irish women would have had to take local Scottish protestant husbands. Their children would have then had Scottish surnames although the mother may have insisted on them taking the RC religion (or not as the case may be).
    Last edited by alan; 03-28-2019 at 06:37 PM.

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  3. #32
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    There's a story that at some point my 3x great grandmother's family came Donegal to Roscommon. I don't know how many generations before my 3x great grandmother that would have been but the surname is primarily associated with Donegal. I have come across some stories of people from Ulster going to Connacht too. The McGovern surname is also associated with Ulster I think and I have McGovern relatives in Roscommon. Lots of families did tend to remain around the one area (such as my paternal line) but there were opportunities for movement to occur many times throughout Irish history.
    Ancestry: Ireland (Paper trail ≅ 81.25% Roscommon, 12.5% Galway, 6.25% Mayo)
    Y-DNA (M) ancestor (Y): Kelly b. c1830 in Co. Roscommon (Uí Maine)
    mtDNA (P) ancestor: Fleming b. c1831 in Co. Roscommon
    mtDNA (M) ancestor: McDermott b. c1814 in Co. Roscommon
    Paternal great grandfather (mt): Connella b. c1798 in Co. Roscommon (T2a1a8)

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    About 17% of the population of Scotland are roman catholic and of them the vast majority got that religion from migrant Irish ancestors who came over in the 19th century from Ireland. The vast bulk of the Irish migration to Scotland actually came from the counties all along what is now the border area between the Republic and Northern Ireland. That included the border counties of Ulster that are now in northern Ireland (Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh) -as well as the Ulster counties that now are in the Republic (Donegal, Monaghan, Cavan) and some of the counties in the Republic that border Ulster but are in Connaught (Sligo, Rosscommon) and Leinster (Longford). Some migrants came from other bits of Ireland but probably 90% of the Irish immigrants came from what is now the northern third of Ireland - an area that straddles both the Republic and NI. However at that time there was no such division in Ireland and indeed technically the Irish were not immigrants in Scotland as all of Ireland at that time was part of the UK, just as Scotland was.

    You cannot tell who has Irish ancestry from surnames alone. For instance, in the huge Irish migration to Dundee in the 19th century, two thirds of the migrants were women. Simply arithmetic then dictates half of these Irish women would have had to take local Scottish protestant husbands. Their children would have then had Scottish surnames although the mother may have insisted on them taking the RC religion (or not as the case may be).
    Did they not come from all over Ulster? I have a lot of 1850’s onwards connections in Glasgow and my gg grandfather worked for the Police there.
    Last edited by Nqp15hhu; 03-29-2019 at 03:21 PM.

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  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by FionnSneachta View Post
    There's a story that at some point my 3x great grandmother's family came Donegal to Roscommon. I don't know how many generations before my 3x great grandmother that would have been but the surname is primarily associated with Donegal. I have come across some stories of people from Ulster going to Connacht too. The McGovern surname is also associated with Ulster I think and I have McGovern relatives in Roscommon. Lots of families did tend to remain around the one area (such as my paternal line) but there were opportunities for movement to occur many times throughout Irish history.
    I have gone through my Irish lines and they are all associated with North western Ulster. There is no suggestion or a link to further south, and that is evident in my matches.

    I think most mixing would occur down near Fermanagh and Armagh.
    Last edited by Nqp15hhu; 03-29-2019 at 03:24 PM.

  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    Did they not come from all over Ulster? I have a lot of 1850’s onwards connections in Glasgow and my gg grandfather worked for the Police there.
    There was more migration from Antrim and Down than from the border areas. My study of Kennedy migration shows that and you can see it more generally just by looking at place of birth in the Scottish censuses (1851 has Irish county of birth).

    Donegal also provided huge numbers especially to the Glasgow area.
    Roscommon also quite a few but probably dropping off further south and the numbers from Munster are negligible. So far I have only found one L226 Kennedy in Scotland (offhand).

    I did a special survey of the parish my gf and ggf were from looking at origins:

    http://www.kennedydna.com/The%20Iris...%20Campsie.htm
    Last edited by MacUalraig; 03-29-2019 at 04:33 PM.
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    Ancestry GCs: Scots in central Scotland & Ulster, Ireland; English in Yorkshire & Pennines
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  9. #36
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    Yeah, I think really most of the migration is from Northern counties of the Island of Ireland.

  10. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    About 17% of the population of Scotland are roman catholic and of them the vast majority got that religion from migrant Irish ancestors who came over in the 19th century from Ireland. The vast bulk of the Irish migration to Scotland actually came from the counties all along what is now the border area between the Republic and Northern Ireland. That included the border counties of Ulster that are now in northern Ireland (Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh) -as well as the Ulster counties that now are in the Republic (Donegal, Monaghan, Cavan) and some of the counties in the Republic that border Ulster but are in Connaught (Sligo, Rosscommon) and Leinster (Longford). Some migrants came from other bits of Ireland but probably 90% of the Irish immigrants came from what is now the northern third of Ireland - an area that straddles both the Republic and NI. However at that time there was no such division in Ireland and indeed technically the Irish were not immigrants in Scotland as all of Ireland at that time was part of the UK, just as Scotland was.

    You cannot tell who has Irish ancestry from surnames alone. For instance, in the huge Irish migration to Dundee in the 19th century, two thirds of the migrants were women. Simply arithmetic then dictates half of these Irish women would have had to take local Scottish protestant husbands. Their children would have then had Scottish surnames although the mother may have insisted on them taking the RC religion (or not as the case may be).
    Historically also right into mid 20th century there was large scale seasonal migration from West of Ireland to Scotland, for stuff like the potato harvest. There's famous example in case of the 'Achill railway branch' which is now a Greenway

    In 1894, the Westport - Newport railway line was extended to Achill Sound. The railway station is now a hostel. The train provided a great service to Achill, but it also is said to have fulfilled an ancient prophecy. Brian Rua O' Cearbhain had prophesied that 'carts on iron wheels' would carry bodies into Achill on their first and last journey. In 1894, the first train on the Achill railway carried the bodies of victims of the Clew Bay Drowning. This tragedy occurred when a boat overturned in Clew Bay, drowning thirty-two young people. They had been going to meet the steamer which would take them to Scotland for potato picking.

    The Kirkintilloch Fire in 1937 almost fulfilled the second part of the prophecy when the bodies of ten victims were carried by rail to Achill. While it was not literally the last train, the railway would close just two weeks later. These people had died in a fire in a bothy in Kirkintilloch. This term referred to the temporary accommodation provided for those who went to Scotland to pick potatoes, a migratory pattern that had been established in the early nineteenth century.
    Again Achill and Erris is one of those areas where there was significant migration from Ulster during the early 17th century due to effects of plantation of Ulster. So much so that the local dialect of Irish which is technically part of the 'Connacht Irish' dialect chain is significantly shifted towards Ulster Irish.
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  11. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    Not the South though, even within the island of Ireland there has been very little native mixing from North to South,
    Well there was a significant migratory event after the Battle of the Diamond

    Mayo witnessed another inward migration of Ulster weavers in the 1790s, but in this case the migrants were Ulster Catholics fleeing from the violent aftermath of the Protestant victory on 21 September 1795 in the sectarian affray near Loughgall, Co. Armagh, known as the Battle of the Diamond. TheIrish Migration, 1750–1800139
    subsequent campaign of intimidation, stretching across north Armagh west into Tyrone and east into Down, drove out thousands of Catholic refugees, many of them linen weavers, towards predominantly Catholic areas. Some moved elsewhere within Ulster, some left Ireland altogether for Scotland andAmerica, but most went west to Fermanagh and Connacht, especially the area around Westport, on the Mayo coast. Indeed, the particular violence of theattack in 1798 on Arran’s colony at Mullifaragh was probably not unconnected with this migration by Ulster Catholics (Cullen 1981, 252). The ripple effect of the sectarian violence centred in north Armagh reached at least as farsouth as Tipperary, where even as late as the twentieth century a distinctive‘Ulster Irish’ was evident among those referred to locally as the ‘Oultachs’(Ultachaigh), remembered in local tradition as the descendants of the Ulstermen and women who had moved there in the 1790s (Ó Fiaich 1990, 7–19;Elliott 2000, 226). A balanced perspective of how the ‘sectarian disease’ operated in this period at the level of the parish is given in Kyla Madden’s study of Forkhill, south Armagh (2005, 3–9).
    Leaving that aside in the last 200 years most internal migration within Ireland has been from periphery to Dublin and greater Leinster region. A process that continues to build up steam as County Dublin now contains 1.35 million people out of a population of 4.73 m (28.5% of state population) but only makes up 1.31% the area of the Republic (921km² out of 70,274 km²).
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